The Truth about Muslims Podcast equips listeners to think critically about media, Muslims, and the mission of God. Since 9/11, people are asking “What is really going on in the Muslim world?” “Is the media giving us the whole picture?” “Do we have reason to fear?” As Christians, “How should we respond?” Join hosts, Trevor Castor and Howard Ki in exploring what God is doing in Muslim ministry and how he is using missionaries throughout the Muslim world. You can listen on iTunes, Spotify, Amazon Music or YouTube.
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Here starts the auto-generated transcription of How ISIS Began in Colorado with Dr. Nabeel Jabbour – Part 1:
The country. They’re random terrorists and brutal endeavors. News flash America. Newsflash America. These Muslim extremists are, are alive and well.
They are not dead, and their video is not gratuitous, and it irrelevant. It is a warning. Welcome to the truth about Muslims podcast, the official podcast of the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media. Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. Alright.
So here’s what we’re gonna do. We’ve got, we’ve got a lot of really good recordings from doctor Nabil Jabbour, and it’s way too much to put into one show. It’s a good problem to have. Yeah. So the the bottom line is we had a decision to make.
We could either edit it down and take out a lot of content that, you know, might be just filler, or we could break it into several shows. And after listening to it, I’ve just determined there’s there’s really no filler. Right. He just has a lot of amazing things to say. Well, I think it’s just that he he has been studying this.
You know, this is his doctoral degree, was in looking specifically at the, you know, beginnings of Islamic fundamentalism. All of his research was done in Arabic and specifically looking at Egypt. And so this guy is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to what’s happening today. And when you read his book, it’s almost prophetic, the things he talks about. Wait.
So Nabil Jabbour Jabbour’s, he’s an expert in Islamic fundamentalism? Yes. That’s his that’s his that’s his, his forte. That’s his forte. His his doctoral, dissertation is actually called Rumbling Volcano, and it’s specifically looking at, Wow Wow.
And just in case you guys are wondering, like, why I don’t know any of this stuff, it’s because I was actually on vacation. Yeah. Haven’t haven’t been able to, be here this week. So on these recordings, you’re gonna notice that I’m not there, so don’t be too sad. Yeah.
I didn’t I didn’t kick Howard to the curb. He just didn’t show up for work. Right. I’ll I’ll just be on the intros and the outros, but I the cool thing is I get to listen to it as you guys listen to it, and it’s kind of exciting for me because, I wasn’t here for the interview, so I get to just, dwell on it afterward, I guess. Well, it was actually really interesting, Howard.
As I was listening and talking with with doctor Jabbour, I was kinda thinking, alright. What would Howard ask right about now? I didn’t throw my voice or anything and try to sound like you, but I really was in my brain thinking, what would Howard say? Yeah. What would the guy that doesn’t know anything ask?
I was kinda no. It wasn’t like that. I was thinking, you know, I think Howard’s questions are much more intriguing than mine. And so when Howard asked a question, people are like, yeah. Yeah.
And I’m thinking to myself, than mine. And so when Howard asked a question, people are like, yeah. Yeah. And I’m thinking to myself, why are you asking that question? I was trying to get inside the the brain of Howard.
What would Howard say? Right. So anyway, yeah. He was special to the show. Just wanna say that.
Yeah. It was a full day full day though of of interviews. Nabil and I spent the whole afternoon together and just kinda I was picking his brain. And I I asked him just, you know, imagine that we’re in a coffee shop and and I’m asking you questions. Like, I just learned that this is kinda your your field of expertise and I’ve got a lot of questions.
And so that’s kinda how we did it. And he is he’s an academic, so it was difficult to get him to engage that way. Right. Because, I mean, if you get a professor, it’s, like, almost like, you know, they want to teach. Right.
Lecture. Right. And so instead, it was like, okay. Nope. Let’s have a conversation.
So in the end, I think we got some really good material. So I’m excited. I’m actually excited for you to hear it, Howard. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about Nabil because, all I know about him is his name.
Okay. So where is he from? Well, Syria. He was born, I believe, in Syria. It comes from a Syrian descent, but, has Lebanese nationality and spent 15 years working and living in Egypt and then, was blacklisted actually in 1991, and then came to the United States, moved to Colorado Springs, and became an American citizen.
Where why was he blacklisted in Egypt? What was he doing? Well, he was working with the Mission Organization, and I’m not exactly sure the details of the the why he was blacklisted, but that can be I have his testimony as well that we recorded. So we’ll release that at another time. Cool.
And he’s so he’s a Christian. He is. He’s actually born, you know so it’s different. Right? In the Middle East, it’s like they have a a Christian heritage.
So his parents were Presbyterian, and so he said at one point in the interview, he said he inherited his Presbyterianism from his parents. You know, his parents put the fear of God in him, but didn’t share the gospel with him. And so, you’ll hear a little bit in there about his brother coming as an international student to the United States and meeting Jesus and then him being very influential in converting him, sharing the gospel with him and him giving his life to Jesus. Got it. So he’s not a Muslim background believer.
No. He’s an Arab Christian. Wow. Okay. So this is a really cool take because, you know, obviously, he’s Arab.
He lived over there. And, Yeah, man. I can’t wait to hear, all that he has to share. Yeah. I don’t even wanna attempt the accent.
Yeah. That that might be a little offensive. But, no, when when when he you know, he’s using some of the terminology, you’re just like, that’s how you pronounce that word. Right? You’re like, that’s official.
Yeah. So, I mean, it’s one of those interesting things. When you meet a Arab Christian, it’s always pretty interesting because, of course, when they pray, they pray to Allah because there’s no other Arab term for God. Oh, right. You know what I mean?
And that’s right. So they have this heritage of Christianity that goes all the way, I mean, much further than you or I have. I mean, we’re like first, second generation. He has a heritage that goes back quite a quite a ways. Right.
And and, I’m sure, like, some of our listeners, they’re probably, like, you know, their head hair standing on the ends because you just said that he calls God Allah, but that What else is he supposed to call him? Right. He’s not gonna call him God. No. It’s not an Arabic word.
Right. He speaks Arabic. That’s my mind just was blown a little bit there. We’ll do a whole show on We need to. Yeah.
We do. Because that’s that’s pretty controversial right now. Yeah. Well, you know, actually, we were talking, before the interview, and, we were talking about how one of the Bible translations that’s in Arabic, somebody recently has changed it and put, the article in there instead of so they changed it basically from Allah to the Allah to make a differentiation. Distinguish.
Yeah. And he said, how would you feel if somebody took the liberty of changing your NIV bible to the god. And I was like, woah. The god. Yeah.
The god so loved the world that he gave his you know what I mean? It it is interesting because in one sense, it makes, obviously, very makes it very specific. But it also kind of, allows for all these other gods. Right? Because you’re talking about the god.
Whereas in our text, it’s more like God, the only god. Right. Big g, little g. No. I I think more the point was here’s an outsider coming and deciding for you what the proper terminology is.
Right. You know what I mean? That would be tough. And so this was, I I can’t remember the context in which this happened, but, yeah. Anyway, so that’s you know, he comes from a very interesting perspective, and he’s written a few books.
One of my favorites is actually, cross through let me make sure I got this right because there’s a couple with the title similar. The Crescent Through the Eyes of the Cross. Alright. And that’s all about worldview and and Muslim worldview. And so if you’re kinda wondering why is it that it seems like the Muslim world views it this way, that book really unpacks it.
And I I think that’s one of my favorite books because it kinda gives you insights into how Muslims might view certain events. Right. Yeah. So, anyhoo, it was a good day, good interviews, but it’s way too long to put into 1 podcast. So we’re gonna break it into 4 sections in the very first section which you guys are about to listen to is all about the connections with how all of this begins and believe it or not Colorado.
You just said Islamic fundamentalism in Colorado. Yeah. They go together. It’s it’s bizarre. And I don’t think a lot of people know this, but there is a strong connection with the United States, an international student sent to Colorado, and the sort of cradle of Islamic ideology that we now see being played out today.
So that’s that’s what this first episode is gonna be about. Alright. Let’s listen to it. One of the big figures in Islamic fundamentalism is a man from Egypt. His name is Sayed Qutb.
If you really want to understand Islamic fundamentalism, Sayyid Qutb is a key figure. How come we don’t hear about Sayyid Qutb? Am I saying that right? It sounds it sounds much better when you say it. Say it again.
Sayed Qutb. Okay. And so you’re saying in order to understand fundamentalism we need to understand this man’s life. Yes. That is right.
So tell me a little bit about his life. Well, he was born in 1906 in Egypt He went to a Quranic school where they, memorized the Quran and study basically. It’s like a religious school. Is that pretty common for students at that point in time in Egypt to go? It used to be common, now not common anymore.
It still exists in other countries such as Pakistan, but in Egypt it’s not, that, that, widespread. And did did Sayid Qutb memorize the Quran? Yes. By the age of 12 he memorized the Quran. Quran is almost as large as the New Testament.
Many many people compete on TV in Egypt, by memorizing the Quran, and they get checked, and they get prizes, etcetera. So what exactly about this guy’s life makes him so so much of a key leader in this movement? Well, he when he finished his primary education, he went to public schools. And then when he graduated from high school he went to teacher’s college and he graduated appointed as a teacher in government schools in the city of Cairo. And, with time, the government recognized that he’s very sharp.
So they gave him a scholarship. Before that he was appointed as an inspector of government schools. So he was an educator? Yeah. Okay.
So later on he was sent to the United States with a unique scholarship. Basically, they wanted him to go with 2 goals. Number 1 is they wanted him to get polished or get westernized. Secondly, they wanted him to get exposed to the public schools in America so that he will come back to Egypt and reform the educational system in Egypt. So at this point in time, does Egypt really value the way that the west is doing things?
Very much so. Oh, okay. Yeah. He got an on a boat in Alexandria coming to the States through Europe. And within, within hours, he panicked with a thought.
If I couldn’t survive as a Muslim in Egypt, because during his secondary years and university years, he became a secular Muslims. He thought, if I couldn’t live as a victorious Muslim in Egypt, where about 90% of the population are Muslims, How can I survive as a Muslim in America? It’s a really good question. Yeah. So he went to his cabin in the ship and got in a small, he had packed a small copy of the Quran in his case, He got it and he had forgotten most of what he used to know by memory and started to read.
The more he read, the more he wanted to pray. With time, he started gaining courage to approach other Muslims on the ship, and he’ll ask them, where are you going? They’ll say, to Paris or to London and he’ll say how’s your walk with God? They’ll say half half. He’ll say if it was half half in Egypt, how can you survive in London or Paris?
And 1 by 1 to his cabin, pray together from the Quran, and pray together. One night he was in his cabin. All of a sudden, a beautiful young lady barged in, a European woman who was most probably half drunk. She looked in and she said, I like to sleep in this cabin. He was shocked.
Can you imagine somebody who had never traveled outside his country having this situation? He said, what do you mean? There’s only 1 bed. She said, one bed is enough for 2. He got her out of his cabin, closed the door, knelt down, and started to pray.
So he came to America with his antennas up. That’s how his trip started coming to the West. It’s amazing to think that the religious, fervor started even before arriving. That he he knew he had to be on guard That is right. Before he arrived.
That’s right. Alright. So that is definitely relevant to the story. So what happens when he gets to the United States? The first place he arrived to was, New York City.
Now, it was 1948. This is, right after the 2nd World War. What really was a shock to his system was materialism. He was amazed. What people are talking about are money, and what they are buying with their money.
All they talked about their cars, their houses, and he wrote a letter to one of his friends back in Egypt. He said, I long to meet an American with whom I can discuss real issues in life. That’s really sad. Approximately, how old is he at this point in his life? Is he in his 30?
In 1906. And in 1948, he went to the States. So he was about 42 years old. Wow. And so he’s just desiring to have a relationship.
Yeah. That’s right. 42. 42. Yeah.
So he’s just desiring to have a relationship of some substance when he comes to the United States and he can’t find one. He longed to have a meaningful discussion about real issues in life, and it’s said that the people he met were materialistic people. My brother, on the other hand, came to the States in 1950s to study for, his master’s in engineering. While in America, he came to know Christ. Mhmm.
Now my parents put the fear of God in us. I come from a Presbyterian background. My parents put the fear of God in us, but they didn’t know how to share the gospel with us. So my brother met the right kind of Americans in America, and he came to know Christ. He went back to the Middle East, and he was the primary instrument in my coming to know Christ.
I am so glad that my brother came as an international student to the States. I am sad that Sayed Qutb came as an international student to the States. I wish he never came. This is this is a really interesting way of looking at it. We have 2 very different paths, 2 very different trajectories going forward, And it all comes down to who these people encounter.
Yeah. So who did Sayed Khutab encounter while he was here and how did that affect him going forward? Okay. So we talked about, New York, and the encounter was with people who all they cared about is money, and he came to the conclusion that the real God in America is the dollar. Then he moved to DC to study English, to improve his he he knew in the English language to some extent, but he need to improve it so that he can enroll at a university in Greeley, Colorado.
So the stage of preparate improving his English was in DC, and during that time, he had to have a surgery, the tonsillectomy, removing his tonsils. And while he was recovering in his room, which was next to a room where nurses and doctors had their coffee breaks, and as he was in the in his room recovering from the surgery, he heard screaming of joy. And so he started asking what happened? What happened? 1 of the the nurses, went to his room and told him great news.
He said what’s the great news? He said Hassanal Banna was assassinated. Okay. So who is Hassanal Banna? Hassanal Banna was another person, another prominent leader of Islamic fundamentalism.
He also was born in 1906 in Egypt. He also went to a Quranic school. He also, by the age of 12, memorized the whole of the Quran. But unlike Sayyid Qutb, in his high school days, he sought committed Muslims to fellowship with. He met some mystic Muslims.
He joined them for a while. They focused on their relationship with God, and they didn’t do any evangelism. So he got disillusioned with them and left them. Then he went to Teachers College, not the same, time like Sayyid Qutb, So they didn’t know one another at at that time. And in 1928, he graduated and went to a city called Ismailiyeh in Egypt, where he started the Muslim Brotherhood.
And what was the what was the point behind the Muslim brotherhood? What was he really trying to establish with this group? It’s a good question. He, you know, he started He wanted to become a teacher because he wanted to influence the new generations. So from day 1, he started influencing his students.
In the evening, in those days, there were no televisions. So in the evenings, he’ll go to cafes where men sit and drink tea and smoke the hookah. Mhmm. And, so he will join them and drink tea with them and ask them, you know, important questions such as why do we have so many problems in Egypt? And he helps them to come to the conclusion, we have forsaken God, and we are living with the consequences.
In 1933, he started a movement which, came to be known as the Muslim Brotherhood. This movement became the trunk of the tree, out of which most of the branches of Islamic fundamentalism came from. It is a very important movement, and recently, they were they took control of the government for a year and a portion of of another year in Egypt when Muhammad Morsi became the president of Egypt. So the Muslim Brotherhood has been around for a while? Yes.
Since 1933. And they’ve had a pretty large following in Egypt, it seems like. Very much so. And so what is the relationship between Hassan Albana and Sayyid Qutb? Like, how did they meet?
One another. Okay. And but he became a hero for Sayed Khotb. Mhmm. So, Sayed Khotb was shocked by the response of this nurse, of this nurse who said, great news, Hazal Banna got assassinated.
He thought, why do Americans create caricatures of great men and make it justifiable to hate them? I mean, it’s a good question. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that Hassan al Bana, when he’s creating the Muslim Brotherhood, do you think he had in mind some of the radicalization that we see today or do you think he really just wanted to have a fundamentalist movement back to making Egypt more Islamic.
I think it was more Islamic, but with time, Hassle Banna got involved in politics. Mhmm. And as a result, he lived with the conceit with consequences and got assassinated for it. So the show wouldn’t be possible without sponsors, and this week’s sponsors are It’s Wammer Center. It’s Wammer Center.
It’s Wammer Center. Philip, Zwamer Center. Zwamer Center. And what does the Zwamer Center do? Talks about Muslims and and tells them on the computer that we love you.
Very nice. The Swimmer Center equips the church to reach Muslims. The Swimmer Center has been educating people about reaching Muslims before it was cool. You know, something important I need to say about Sayed Kotb. It’s not only the assassination of Hassan al Banna that really made a permanent difference in her life.
Even far more was the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948. And then and the government in the United States recognized it right away. This time, he was really shocked. He thought from what he knew about the Bible and about Christians that Christians are supposed to practice justice. He thought why is it when it comes to Israel, Christians Christians forget about justice and stand with Israel no matter what?
He crossed the line. So was he in the United States when this happened? Yeah. So he has the encounter with the woman on the boat. He experiences the materialism in New York City.
And then while in Washington, DC, he sees the politics of the establishment of Israel and the assassination. Of the possibility of Israel is 1948. But before that, there was preparation for it. And, he was at that time in Egypt, and sometime while he was in the state, Israel was established as a state. Yeah.
So you can you can see how going with the defenses there Yeah. And then seeing what he experiences. Okay. So let’s go forward from from the assassination of Hassan al Bana, the nurses reaction, what’s next for Saeed Khan? After DC, he went to Greeley, Colorado where there is a famous, program on education, and that’s why he went to Greeley.
And Greeley, at that time, in, at was a rural rural area in comparison with what he saw in New York and DC. I can imagine. He thought, finally, I found the America that I’ve been looking for. He didn’t hear about the partying on Friday nights Saturday nights that took place outside of campus. So in Greeley, he had various experiences.
One, major experience he had was with a football player who was African American, and he was the by far the most important player on the football team in that university. And can you believe it that African American didn’t have a Caucasian friend, an American white friend? Yeah. It’s the 19 fifties. I can imagine.
Yeah. And believe that’s 1949. 1949. Yeah. And, you know, the only group that accepted him was were foreign students.
So he joined the foreign students club, the international students club at the university. If he wanted to have a haircut, he didn’t find 1 barber in Greeley who would offer him to cut his hair, so he’ll have to drive all the way to Denver to have a haircut. A very important experience that, Seyid Hoth had one time, along with this football player, went together to the movies. When they arrived to the theater, the man at the door looked at them. Now Sayid Qutb is a little bit dark, but not like the African American guy.
So he looked at them, and he said, you can’t go in. So Sayyid Qutb said, why not? He said, you are the n word. Mhmm. So he said, what do you mean?
I am Egyptian. He said, I’m sorry. I didn’t know. You can go in but not him. So he said I won’t go in either.
Wow. So he was shocked by materialism, he was shocked by the Christians and lack of justice, then he was shocked by racism in America. Did he have any encounters with Christians while he was in Greenlee? Did he He there is a story about him. Actually, recently, I taught a course at a seminary in Colorado Springs, and one of my students comes from Greeley.
She told me about the church that he went to, that Sayed Kotb went to. It seems on the weekend, the cafeteria cafeteria and the university was closed. So the students, especially the international students, were trying to save money by, eating wherever they can, have food. So it looks like on Sundays, one of the churches has a potluck lunch, and he went to that, church. And, there was a dancing party at that church.
And, you can imagine coming from Egypt Yeah. That this would not have been something that he would have felt appropriate. To a different church. Yeah. Yeah.
Wow. So so how does he fit into the picture? He the you know, he had short time in California after Greeley and then went back to Egypt determined to join the Muslim Brotherhood. Alright. This week’s sponsors.
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It’s called In the Shade of the Quran. And that commentary is extremely influential in shaping the minds of Muslim fundamentalists. For instance, the brother of Sayid Qutb, his name is Mohammed Qutb, ended up becoming a professor at Jardai University in Saudi Arabia. Osama bin Laden was a student at that university. He didn’t take courses from Muhammad Kooth, the brother of Sayyid Kooth, but Muhammad Kooth was asked to give a lecture once a month to the student body, voluntary lecture for the students.
And Osama bin Laden attended these lectures. He was at crossroads in his life at that time. And as a result of the influence of Muhammad Qutb, Osama bin Laden took the road that he has chosen. It’s amazing that the the connection with being in the United States, and I can’t help but wonder what if he had had a similar experience like your brother? Yeah.
How different the world would be today? That is right. This guy is that is right. At the very core of everything happening today is this guy who came as an international student to the United States. So are his ideas at this point radical or are his ideas reform?
How would you describe Sayyid Qutb at this point and his ideas? About militancy, but he himself did not practice it. You know, violence escalates. Hassan al Banna wrote certain things, say it could took them further. He emphasized the Takfir principle, which is, the good guys versus the bad guys.
By the way, let me go back as a background to this Takfir principle. While he was in the prison hospital at one time, there was a rebellion that took place in the prison, and the police were, so savage in the way they treated the prisoners. And many prisoners were taken as wounded people to that hospital. When he saw how these Muslim policemen or prison guards were treating the people. He was Fellow Muslims.
Yeah. Fellow Muslims. He thought how could Muslims treat fellow Muslims this way? So that’s when he followed a principle that was, introduced by somebody called Ibn Taymiyyah, which is called the fear principle, which basically, drawing 2 circles, the good guys versus the bad guys. So even Muslims can be bad guys, and they can be considered the enemy.
And during his time of imprisonment, he did not only write a commentary on the Quran, several volumes, he wrote a book called Milestones, which is extremely important. I used to have it as a required reading at all the seminaries where I taught. What exactly is Takfir? What does it mean? Takfir means declaring somebody as kafir.
In other words, a person who is not a believer. Okay. So it’s it’s saying they’re no longer in the faith. Yeah. And so it’s him seeing Muslims treating other Muslims with such brutality that he has to make the decision they can’t be Muslims.
That’s right. They wouldn’t be doing it. That’s right. And this is the same principle that we’re seeing played out today and a lot of the radical movements where radical Muslims are killing fellow Muslims because they’re Takfir as they’re they’re not Muslims anyway. Yeah.
Wow. Basically, they excommunicate them from the circle of the faith. So what exactly did he write in this book Milestones? In this book, by the way, the way he wrote it, he’ll have it smuggled out one chapter at a time, and basically he wrote about his convictions based on his experiences in America. Wow.
It’s a short book. It’s can be downloaded free on the Internet. It was smuggled out of prison, one chapter at a time. And when finally all the book was smuggled out, they got it published. Right away, it got sold out.
Then they reprint it, then it got sold out, several reprints. Then the government realized there’s something important about this book. They read it and they found it’s dangerous, so they banned it. What what did they find so dangerous? Because basically he was, critical of Muslims unless they were photocopies of Muslim fundamentalists, And, the government in Egypt is was trying to, emphasize socialism and pan Arabism.
For him, they were not real Muslims, so he was perceived as an enemy of the government. And does he outline and describe how Muslims are to correct this problem in the book? Yes. He basically is saying that they should go back to the fundamentals of the faith, going back to original Islam at the time of Muhammad because the Islam that exists today is a corrupted form of Islam. He uses that term Jahiliyah doesn’t he in that book referencing that, America was like a pre Islamic Jahiliyah Yeah.
Is that term. Yeah. Right. Almost like barbaric. Barbaric.
It’s like the time, according to Muslim historians, they refer to the time before Mohammed as the barbaric time or al Jahiliyyah. So he refers to the government and the Islam, which was practiced in Egypt as a form of Jahiliyyah or barbaric religion. And did he see that I’m assuming because Egypt was sending him to the United States to study education and they really valued the way the West was doing things. I’m sure he came back to Egypt with the desire to protect Egypt from becoming like the west. Basically, he was against modernity.
He believed that modernity is ruining Islam. Yeah. So how does he fit I mean, how does the story conclude with saying something important about the book. When finally the book was banned, the government knew that this man is very dangerous and the the the court, sentenced him to hanging. But they didn’t want to hang him because they were afraid he’ll become a martyr and become a saint among the Muslim fundamentals.
So they sent him Sadat, who was in the government, but was not the president. The president was Nasser. So Saadat went to visited him in prison and pleaded to him to recant. He refused, because if he recanted, they wouldn’t have hanged him. Then they sent him his sister, the sister of of Sayed Kotb.
She pleaded to him. She said, just recant, and they will set you free. They promised me that they’ll set you free. You can go to a country in the Gulf such as Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or somewhere in the Gulf countries, and you can write as many books as you want. He said, if I recant, whatever I write will be of no value.
Mhmm. So he refused to recant. And in 1966, he got hanged. At that time, Egypt government thought we eradicated Islamic fundamentalism. I read so many books written by Muslim fundamentalists that I came to the conclusion nobody can eradicate Islamic fundamentalism.
Excuse me for using this analogy. We can eradicate a generation of mosquitoes, But unless we identify the swamps and address them every few years, we have to wage with a new war against a new generation of mosquitoes. And what scares me is that every new generation will be tougher to deal with. Is it is it fair to make the comparison that in some ways Sayyid Qutb became a martyr for Islamic fundamentalism? Definitely.
And so in the same way that we would say the blood of the martyr is the seed of the church. It is the spreading of the gospel. Do Islamic fundamentalists see some of these guys as martyrs? Bin Laden, Sayyid Qutb. Muslims believe Islam is a tree that get gets nourished from the blood of the martyrs.
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Just got done listening to Nabil Jabbour. That was that was amazing. Just to kinda know the backstory, I think, is so fascinating, especially with, all the the the the stuff that we’re inundated with on the news today. It’s kinda neat to kinda hear what how everything kinda started. Yeah.
I don’t I don’t know that a lot of people realize that there’s a connection with this guy coming to the United States as an international student. Right. And you we kinda heard, like, a little bit of the backstory of Osama bin Laden. You know? And I think that made it more fascinating.
But this, here kind of, like, even going, before Osama. Right? And, before a lot of this stuff had happened, it’s kinda neat to hear, like, the the very, very beginnings. Mhmm. And so but there’s a few questions that I’m I’m sure that everyone else is wondering, that’s that’s not in the know.
He throws around terms like the brotherhood and and Al Qaeda and so, like, is there anything, like, really simple way to understand who the brotherhood and and who Al Qaeda is and all that kind of stuff? Yeah. I think he makes the comment, and he and he says this in his book as well, that that the Muslim Brotherhood is the trunk of which all the branches of Islamic fundamentalism have come. So he would make the case that the the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hassan al Bana, basically started this group in order to kind of protect Egypt from becoming westernized. Because if you look back at the time when Hassan al Banna does all this, this is the time at which there’s a a significant battle going on for what the Middle East is gonna look like.
And the United States is very involved in sort of kinda trying to set up democracies in sort of a secular government in all of these different places. And so Hassan al Bana’s goal with the Muslim Brotherhood is to, keep it from becoming westernized. And so it’s multinational. It’s not just Egypt. Well, no.
It is it is just Egypt at that point. At that point, the Muslim Brotherhood is is purely Egyptian. And this is the fifties? The Muslim Brotherhood goes back even further to the thirties, I believe. Maybe it’s the yeah.
1933, I believe, is the beginnings of that. But but in in the 1900, this decade. So well, we’re not 1900, but you know what I’m saying. Right. Yeah.
20th century. This is when all this is going on. That’s so interesting. So, so it like, Nabil Jabbour just gives us a snapshot into kind of how these thoughts have just kind of exploded from this one guy’s mind. Yeah.
Well, that’s the really neat well, I say neat. It’s not very neat. Interesting. Interesting. That’s the interesting point, that when Sayed Qutb comes back to to Egypt, the Muslim brotherhood is going and they really need you know, Sayyid Qutb isn’t the the charismatic leader.
He’s the theological mind. So he’s kinda like the give the give me the reasons from the Quran Right. That we can do this. Right. And the this gives a whole new level of importance to international student ministry.
Right? Right. Seriously. And that’s what I was thinking. I’m like and and you guys kind of touched on it too.
Like, how different would have been if his experience was much like Nabil Jabbour’s brother? Oh, no. When he said that, when he was sharing that story talking about how his brother came to America, and he’s so thankful because his brother met Jesus. And then And the effects thereof. Yes.
I mean, Nabeel Jibor effect. Right. Nabeel Jibor Jibor is writing all of these books, helping us to understand Islam and and and reaching Muslims and things like that. And and that wouldn’t have happened if his brother had had the same experience that Qatab had. Right.
No. His experience, is not a good one, and I think the saddest one was the experience he had with the the Christians. He does write. Sayyid Khatab has written more than just milestones. He’s written a lot of different things, and a lot of it is about his experience in America, which is becoming really popularized right now by Muslims.
You mean other people are reading it because of You can get it online. It’s free. It’s accessible PDF format, and you can read about and it’s being translated from the the Arabic to English so that people can see. And he writes extensively on his experiences in America. Yep.
What he sees. You know what I find that’s really interesting is that we’ve been talking about how, Muslims are coming to know the Lord simply because of looking at fundamentalism and seeing, wow, like, if that’s what Islam is, I’m not really sure if I wanna be a part of Islam any longer. But here on the same sense, but on the on the opposite extreme, Qatab comes to the states, and he’s not a strong Muslim at this point. And then he sees this immorality, right, in in in American culture and, the way we’re we live, the way we do things. And he’s thinking to himself, if this is the way the West is, this is the way modernization is, if this is the direction that it’s gonna take us, then I don’t wanna have anything to do it.
And it drives him back Yep. To, you know, fundamental, Islam. Right? Well, that’s that’s that term that we use, that Jahaliyah term, that idea that before Mohammed came, before the Arabs had a prophet, that they were in sort of a barbaric state. Right.
They were backwards. Everything was just barbaric. They were burying people in the sand. It was just chaos. And Saeed Khutb uses that term when he describes the United States and says that while they seem to be advancing in modernity, they seem to be advancing in medicine, in science, and all of the latest industry and engineering and education.
That’s what he was sent here to study, education. He was supposed to go back to Egypt and become, in charge of the education ministry in Egypt to make it like the United States. Yeah. Instead, he sees it all and says while they think they’re moving forward, they’re actually going backwards because they’re spiritually bankrupt. Yeah.
And that’s so interesting because, you know, sometimes we think, oh, you know, like, the way Muslims think is so backwards, you know, because it’s so counterintuitive to what we think in our world view. That’s interesting. Modernization is so important for us and and and technological advances and, you know, and we and I I know there’s there’s people writing and articles being written about, is technology good for us? And but in here in the fifties Mhmm. Right, this gentleman has this experience and he just, you know, from that point on, the way he writes, it’s it’s so affected him that now he’s influencing millions of Muslims, to go back to the way, you know, pre modernity for for for Muslims.
That’s right. And so when you look at ISIS, it’s just like, okay. That doesn’t make any sense. Why would they wanna go back? And then you remember, like, we were talking, I think, in this podcast about slavery, how they’re going back to, you know, owning slaves saying that that’s okay because that’s how it was in Mohammed’s day.
And it’s just so interesting to see, now how they got to that conclusion, like, why it would be better, to go backwards. Because we think in those terms back in the day, like, we were so ignorant. We we didn’t understand. We didn’t have the conveniences and the comforts. And here he’s saying, no.
No. No. That’s all leading you to, you know, immorality, barbarianism. Right. That was his big thing is especially that particular meeting he has at the church.
Right. With the dance. Yeah. There’s a dance. Okay.
But that’s On the gramophone, they’re playing baby. It’s cold outside. Right. The room is filled with lust. I mean, he writes about all of this and it’s like the chest of the men and the chest of the women were meeting together.
The minister’s dimming the lights and everybody’s dancing and it and he actually makes the minister out to be like a matchmaker. Interesting. And this is what’s weird is it’s in the fifties. So I wouldn’t say that the fifties were like where, like, a lot of churches maybe were doing this, you know. This would have been a pretty liberal experience for a church in the fifties, I think.
Right. So it’s like, not I’m not saying it’s chance, but like, it is like not common. Like, you know, I would always see, in, you know, clips, Not I don’t even know. Like, just, you know, like, whenever I heard this kind of stuff, there’d be, like, chaperones. They’d be, like, leave room for the Holy Spirit.
That’s right. Put a balloon there. Room for the Holy Spirit. Right. That’s in a movie somewhere.
Right. Or they wouldn’t have dances at all. They’d be like, no way we’re gonna have dances. But here he goes to a church because he wants food Mhmm. Right, where all his college friends, you know, they’re they’re they’re hungry.
They’re college students. They go to a church for a potluck, and then there’s a dance. Yeah. And we’re okay. And I’m assuming that you heard, that they’re playing Baby It’s Cold Outside Right.
From the book. The gramophone. From the book. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. So, like, wow. He even mentions the song He even breaks the song down about what it means. Right. And the song is kind of seductive.
Like, when I hear it, I’m just like, oh. Oh. Sorry. Took the opportunity to single line it. Right.
But, yeah. So, I mean, I’m so grieved that his whole experience and then, of course, racism. And this is Colorado. Yeah. Imagine if he had gone to South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama.
Right. This is Colorado. So it’s That would be totally different. And I did find it interesting that when he said he’s an Egyptian, the guy said I’m sorry. Yeah.
Sorry. You can come in. You can come in. Yeah. Which is really interesting to see just that that paradigm there, at that at that time.
But that’s sad, especially the boat. That was a really weird one. Oh, encountering the, the woman that The human half drunk woman. Right? Wanting to sleep in the same bed.
She doesn’t know this guy. And he says it’s at that moment where he’s really questioning if he has what it takes. Do I have what it takes to maintain my Muslim faith while in America? And then he encounters this woman. Right.
And if you consider, like, in, like, an alternative universe, what if it was a woman that, that just had caught his eye and that he felt attraction for and it would it happened, you know, more naturally in the West kinda way? Maybe it would been a totally different story. But because she was so blatant Right. Not not being, you know, not being concerned at all about, you know, the fact that she was a woman and that she was half inebriated. I don’t know what half means.
But Yeah. You know, that still must have been shocking for, you know, a Muslim that had just come from Egypt. No matter how, you know, secular he was. Right. Yeah.
Right. And then experiencing that that how much have been must have been such culture shock. Yeah. I think that’s a there that’s a good analogy. There’s a a fair amount of culture shock, immorality, and then also, there’s a lot of political things going on with the United States and Egypt, with the Muslim Brotherhood, with political powers in Egypt.
And all of this, like I mentioned with Nabil, is a perfect storm. It is. And and it it there says a lot because, you know, whenever he, Nabeel Jabeel is talking about him in the very beginning, he just sounds like a man that’s very real about himself, a young man trying to figure out, okay, what do I believe? What do I not believe? Am I really a Muslim?
Am I not a Muslim? He’s just kind of on that on that fence. But by the end of his life, when his sister’s begging for his him to to recant Mhmm. His his his belief system is so solidified that he’s like, if I wrote anything else and I recanted, then my words would mean nothing. Well, he had suffered quite a bit at that point.
Being in prison. Being tortured. Yeah. Yeah. In hospital constantly, but he’s still writing.
Mhmm. And he his belief system has so solidified that he would not even recant to save his own life. Nope. And so therefore he he gets hanged which is so fascinating because I don’t know in the US, we’ve been doing lethal injections, if that, you know, but then here we have an old fashioned hanging. Yeah.
And this is 1966, I believe. Right. So this is this is a this is a hanging and and he gets hanged because and he knew he was gonna be hanged. Right. Because he believed so much, and and even just the demonizing idea of the of the West, of the modernity, moving that direction that he wanted to protect his his, people.
What what did you think about this idea of takfir, that concept of declaring someone to be non Muslim? Did it make sense the way he was explaining it that Sahid Quds have needed to kind of Right. Have this as an ability to be able to justify why these people were doing what they were doing to him when he was being beaten by fellow Muslims in prison and tortured. He needed to justify that they can’t be Muslims because they shouldn’t be doing something like that to me as a Muslim. Right.
I you know what I found that was really interesting about that was that, you know, he goes to the west and he can see that they’re the enemy, like, in in in his mind. They’re they’re immoral. They’re just a bad people. Overall, he has very little good experience, as far as his faith is concerned in America. So I can see how he can, you know, just be like, no, they’re bad.
But then he comes back to Egypt, and then all of a sudden he’s dealt with the same kind of thing. So what is he gonna do? He says, well, they’re Muslims. So his only option is to either to say, oh, we’re all bad. Right.
And he and he sees that the Egyptians are like, oh, man. That’s what we want. Right. We want westernization. They’re watching western movies.
They’re getting a western leader. They’re getting, you know, all of this. Yeah. Yeah. And so he has he has a decision to make.
He’s saying either, the West is wrong and we’re wrong as well. Or he has to say, no. No. The West is wrong. And these Muslims that are doing all these bad things Yep.
Wanting the bad things, they have to be wrong too. So I’m not gonna consider them Muslim. That’s right. And then therefore, he has to interpret the Quran in a way that that supports To justify it. Yeah.
Exactly. And then and then that comes out into the milestones. Right. When you read milestones, the jihad is always supposed to first and foremost be fought against your own Muslim society. Wow.
Okay. So how does Over overthrow these Muslim governments because they are legislating Muslim people, but they’re not legislating through the Sharia. Right. Which is why, again, this is another connection to modern day, fundamentalism. Is that why Sharia law is becoming so so, popular in some of these countries that are embracing fundamentalism?
Yep. Because he’s saying if this is a Muslim people and we are Muslim people, this is a Muslim country, then the only people capable of legislating are Muslims. And true Muslims. True Muslims. Not the Tuskegee law.
Muslims. Not the Kafir as he said that the true Muslims legislating legislation by God through Muslims. Right. And that’s why the jihad first has to be fought against secular Muslim governments, and that’s why he was eventually hanged. Right.
And I and I can’t help but wonder if the government had just decided to let him go, what would have happened? Oh, I I I don’t think he would have been nearly as influential. I think the death, like like we mentioned in the podcast, his death was considered martyrdom. And and I think that’s what’s key about next week’s episode is that there is a young man that is right there present. You mean literally there?
Well, the the lawyer and this will be in next week’s episode. The lawyer of Sayed Qutb is the uncle of Ayman al Zawahiri, who is the current leader of Al Qaeda Woah. And mastermind behind 911. There’s a connection here. This is all gonna make sense after 4 episodes.
Interesting. So you’re saying that there’s this web that begins with CutHub and takes us all the way to where we are now. Oh, yeah. Dude, I cannot wait to hear the next, next set of episodes, man. Yeah.
Good stuff. Well, that’s it for this week. Thank you guys so much for listening. We really thank, Nabil Jabbour. How long did you guys record?
4 hours, you said? We got about 3 and a half hours in, so I think we’re gonna break it down to probably 4 episodes, 30 minutes each, so we got some editing to do, but it’s it’s good stuff. Yeah. So, thank you again for listening, all you listeners out there, and please, put our name out there. Like, you know what we’re finding?
We’re finding that a lot of people don’t know how to listen to podcasts. Yeah. I’m shocked. I you know what? I’m just gonna go ahead and see.
Howard was talking about technology. I’ve got an old school phone, but I still listen to podcasts on my iPad. I actually have an iPad. Yeah. Yeah.
I dug it out of a drawer so that I could download podcasts because I like podcasts. Look cute. I’m getting rid of the iPhone. But, you know, take the time, like just, you know, like sell people on the idea of a podcast because we think it’s such a a cool way to, get the information out there. And, and so if you’re listening and you like the show, also review on iTunes.
You can subscribe there or on our Podomatic Yeah. We’re up to 5 reviews. Right. And they’re all 5 stars. Alright.
And they weren’t they weren’t written by me or Trevor. I actually asked Howard that. I was like, I’m gonna go write us a review. So it’s gonna say your name and I’m gonna be like, That’s right. And I’m gonna say, It’s me.
And I’m gonna say, I’m awesome. I’ll like us. But anyway, so, again, thank you for listening and, we’ll see you next week. Yeah. Be sure to tune in next week for part 2.
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Here starts the auto-generated transcription of Is the Qur’an a Book of Peace or Violence with Dr. Peter Riddell:
Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. This is the Truth About Muslims podcast. Episode 11 with doctor Peter Riddell from Melbourne School of Theology. Right. We’re gonna be Skyping into Australia down under.
Land from down under. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about try our Australian accent out. No. How you going?
No. How you going? No. Alright. No.
No. We won’t do that. We’re not going to. But anyway, Peter Riddell. Yeah.
Tell us about him. Well, he has a PhD from Australian National University. His degree is actually in chronic exegesis. So cool. Yeah.
If you think about it, I mean, even somebody with a degree in biblical exegesis, you immediately think, well, that’s that’s kinda neat. Alright. I’m gonna be honest with you. I don’t really even know what that means. Chronic exegesis.
Well, no. Same as, like, biblical exegesis. Like, how do you study the Quran? What do you, how does interpretation happen? How does it apply in daily life?
How does it go to the different schools of law? Wow. That’s weird. How to read and understand the Quran. And he’s a Christian.
Yes. But here’s the really cool thing, and this is, one thing I really appreciate is he’s respected in the Muslim world for his work on Islam. Get out of here. Yes. So he actually, he taught at the London School of Theology where he was the, professor of Islamic Studies and he also was the director of the Center For Islamic Studies and Muslim Christian Relations.
Okay. Well, that’s awesome. Yeah. And, also, was a professor in the history department at University of London with, SOAS, which, SOAS, which stands for the London School of Oriental and African Studies. Wow.
So, anyway, smart dude. Right. And we get him here in the studio. In Australian accent. In Skype, but still in the studio.
You get to hear it. Yeah. You’ll get to hear it. And and believe me, and, Howard, do you remember that, that time we were hearing Sinclair Ferguson give, a message? He’s Scottish.
Right? He’s Scottish. Right. And I I kinda leaned over to Howard and I was like, I don’t know why, but every time he speaks, he just sounds intelligent because of his Scottish accent. So Peter’s got a, an Australian accent.
Which is just as good. So he just sent us a a text saying that he’s going to grab, a coffee, and he’ll be ready to go. So in Australia, I believe he caught a keppa. A keppa. A keppa.
Hey. So I’m not gonna try this Aussie accent, but if you do hear me, listeners, have grace because for some reason I’m gonna try it. When we were in London, Trevor and I were in London once, and for some strange reason I would just start to Speak with this weird like true. It wasn’t even a good English. Even when he would lead worship.
He’d be like in Matt man. No. No. No. No.
No. No. It’s so true. But I don’t know why. So anyway, so if you start to hear something weird, like my voice just sound not Yeah, mate.
I would start throwing out mate. I don’t I don’t I don’t think I’m gonna try not to do that. How you going? Actually, your accent sounds pretty good. Yeah.
I mean, how long That’s not a knife? I’ve I’ve only been for, I think I was there 2 weeks. Dude, you picked up a lot. They made fun of me terribly. What do you mean?
But, apparently, you make fun of people when you really like them in Australia. At least that’s what they told me. I don’t know. Oh, okay. Anyway, let’s give them a call.
Yeah. Let’s do it. Alright. I mean, you know Skype. I don’t know Skype.
Hello? Hey, Peter. This is Trevor. Hi, Trevor. How are you doing?
Good. And this is Howard Key. Howard, introduce yourself. Hey, Peter. Hi, Howard.
How are you doing? Great. I’m so excited about today. Yes. Me too.
Well, Peter, we we debated, whether or not to attempt an Australian accent, when we spoke with you. Well well, I actually, it’s you guys who have the accent. I don’t have an accent. Oh, nice. Nice.
So, anyway, Peter, what we’re doing here is we’re we’re trying to get as many folks as we can both from the academic community and also those who have worked extensively with Muslims to kinda give us, give give the listeners some handles on how to interpret the things that they see in the media. So that’s kinda what the topic’s gonna be today. Okay. So we’ll just kinda start with, Howard and I were kinda joking around about having, a PhD in chronic exegesis and being a follower of Christ. Like, how did that come about?
Well, I mean, it’s a long story, but I’ll give you the short version. I, I took my undergraduate studies majoring in modern languages in, Indonesian and Malay language, and French language and literature. And when I wanted to go on to postgraduate studies, I followed the Indonesian study path. And my interest was in, yeah, it was in, linguistics, really. But as I did my research, I was using Islamic texts.
So I found that, the Islamic texts and the theology that was in them was, particularly interesting, challenging in some ways. And so I ended up, reorientating my PhD towards theology and Koranic studies in in Islam. Now as a as a committed and believing Christian, that was not simply something that gave me academic interest, but, it had a direct bearing on my own faith position and and my own faith as a as a believing Christian. So, yeah, as a Christian, I was, I found that the studies that I was doing were particularly interesting beyond pure academics. So, yes.
That’s how it’s going on. You mentioned a little bit, you mentioned a little bit about, some of the texts being challenging. Was there anything specific that you found, challenging as you started studying the text? Well, I think, all sorts of things. What I was finding, for example, was that the the Quran, is a, you know, it’s a text that’s got about over 6,000 verses in it.
And some of those verses seem quite clear, but some of the other verses don’t seem clear. And of course, that sounds familiar to us as Christians, you know Right. And that we have to engage in all sorts of, you know, interpretive processes with the Bible as well. So, yeah, when I saw some Quranic verses referring to polygamy, for example, that seemed to be saying that that men could marry for for women. Well, I find that challenging.
How do Muslim how do Muslims go about interpreting that? And, of course, it’s not a simple process. You get all sorts of debates and yeah. Yeah. So, Peter, this is Howard speaking.
I’m the guy who doesn’t know much. Everything I learned about Islam, I’ve basically learned from being on this show. So Trevor’s the expert, and, we interview experts, and I’m the the normal guy that just kinda asks maybe the basic questions that maybe our listeners wanna know. So what is the difference between the Bible and the Quran? For instance, the Bible has a lot of writers, over a long period of time.
I don’t know who wrote the Quran. I don’t know, that that process, what it has in it. The Bible has a lot of allegory, parables, poetry. So could you just give us a basic rundown of the Quran? Yes, indeed.
Well, let’s first talk about who wrote the Quran. As you say, the bible’s got lots of writers. As far as the Quran is concerned, in a sense, I need to wear 2 hats. Let me first answer as if I was a Muslim. Okay?
Nice. So the Muslim answer is no no human person wrote the Quran. The Quran is is God’s word. It comes from Allah directly. Right.
And so the the the the hard copy that we hold in our hands is simply a record, that was passed on by Mohammed from God and that they’re God’s direct words. So that’s a that’s a Muslim answer. The the Quran is God’s word. A non Muslim answer answer is is so sorry, Howard. You were gonna say?
No. That that was actually me, Peter. Would the would an average Muslim take offense at the suggestion that that Mohammed is the author of the Quran? The average Muslim, take offense not necessarily, but they would wanna correct you. Okay.
Because they they they would say it’s a common, non Muslim misunderstanding that Mohammed is the author of the Quran. Okay. Wow. Okay. As far as the non Muslim answer is concerned, you get a a few different different, responses there.
For a long time, non Muslims have assumed that Mohammed is the sole author of the Quran, and he may well have been. But, there are there are especially in over the last 100 or so years, there’s been some revisionist kinds of approaches suggesting that the Quran is a compilation of different bits written by different people, and that’s quite a dynamic debate taking place at the moment. So, basically, the non Muslim answer is humans wrote the Quran, but there’s a debate as to exactly which humans did. So the non the non Muslims are the debate are debating about it. The the the Muslims would not be debating about multiple offers.
Right. Okay. So they’re not even entering in the debate. Got it. That’s right.
Yeah. The stock standard answer for Muslims is that it’s it’s from God through Mohammed’s mouth, and Mohammed was just like a typewriter. And then as far as the aspects of the Quran, like the the allegories, narrative, the what what does it have in it? Or is it just like all these laws or decrees or Yeah. Well, it’s interesting actually.
I mean, the Quran, it’s kind of like a mosaic where you’ve got a whole bunch of different elements there like we do in the Bible. I suppose the difference is that in the Bible, you can easily divide the books up according to historical books, prophetic books, wisdom literature, also you know, there there are genre types in the Bible, different styles. Whereas with the Quran, you certainly have all of those styles, but they’re much more intermixed within each chapter. So, I mean, there’s one chapter, chapter 12, the story of Joseph that’s mainly narrative. But apart from that chapter, most of the other chapters, a bit of this and a bit of that.
You know, there’s there’s didactic teaching material, there’s narrative material, there’s, prophetic material. So it’s all sort of intermixed. It’s not as easily easy to divide up according to styles as it is in the Bible. Interesting. So it would take a narrative and comment on that narrative?
I’m sorry. I missed that. So it would take the narrative like the Joseph story and then it would comment and teach on that narrative? Yes. And, when you read the when you read the the the Quran, when you read a narrative, for example, you know, from the Bible, you expect to read this flowing narrative.
And in a sense, the the the sort of lesson is to be drawn out by the reader. Right. In the Quran in the Quran, the the the the teaching comes through much more clearly. So a bit of narrative is told. And then you get a verse or 2 where the the the the the the book then kind of explains what the lesson is.
There’s this sort of didactic teaching voice that keeps coming inserting itself from time to time. And, of course, that’s understood by Muslims as being the voice of Allah who’s coming through and explaining what the purpose of the story is. Peter, what are some of the the stories that we have in the Bible that are also found in the Quran? Well, speaking at a surface level now, you’ll find because the detail of the story is often somewhat different but, in terms of the macro level, you find the story a story of Joseph in the Quran that obviously comes from the Bible, you find Moses makes regular appearances in the Quran. David, makes regular appear appearances in the Quran.
Of course, there’s the birth narrative of Jesus and some other verses that talk about his ministry. You find the story of Jonah in the Quran. Wow. So many many of these, you know, many of the names that are familiar to us from the Bible you encounter in the Quran as well. Now, when you dig down, when you go beyond that surface level and you look at the detail of the story, then you find little twists and turns and differences that sometimes are not significant, other times they are significant.
You find a creation story in the in the Quran. So there’s lots of parallels, at the macro level. When you dig down and look at the details, sometimes there are significant differences. Wow. So do you find that, the the same point is trying to be made from the from the biblical narrative as the the chronic narrative or the teachings from the Quran?
Sometimes. Yes. Yes. It’s a fascinating study really to to look at the Quran and the Bible side by side and do a similarities and differences kind of study. So you find many, many parallels.
You know, the story of Joseph, for example, is quite interesting because the the in many ways, the story is very, very similar. Joseph, you know, is is, there there are the jealous brothers who sell him off. He goes down to Egypt. He becomes famous. Those sorts of parallels are there.
But then you you you sort of get kinda you get differences as well where the story of Potiphar’s wife in the bible, also occurs in the Quran, but it’s not quite it’s a bit more oblique. And often with the I I guess another important point with the Quran is sometimes you find a story that sounds familiar but the detail is missing and you get the impression that the audience that it was written for must have known the story so that the teller only told part of the story. And today, we look at it and think, well, hang on. That’s missing. I’ll give you an example of that, the story of of David and Bathsheba.
Now that’s a rich narrative in the Bible as we know. Very colorful, very gruesome in many ways, very disturbing in some ways. In the Quran, there’s a kind of oblique reference to David having been put to the test and there are a few verses around that and you you you read it and you think, oh, that must be about David and Bathsheba. But it doesn’t actually tell the David and Bathsheba story. Oh, interesting.
So sometimes, you know, you in a sense you have to read some parts of the Quran and then read the bible to understand what the Quran, quranic context is. And and so the question I guess is that when you have Joseph who, is faithful to God, in the Quran it would be to Allah, and then the the the Jewish people, the promised, the people of God, that would be Muslims? Well, yes. I mean, the the the Quran talks about it has certain terms that the people of Israel, the they call them the Bani Israelir. The people of Israel, there are references to them, but, they’re portrayed, as having been given, an original, you know, favor, but they betray the favor.
And so as a as a people, they are they are punished. And they’re sort of kinds of outcasts. So similar again, similarity and difference. And that’s the impression I always get when I read the Quran, similarity and difference. So when you have the story of Joseph, for instance, it’s not really about, it is about Israel, and the the Muslims are interested in that.
It’s in the Quran. Or is it really about Muslims are trying to find their heritage? Like, the story of God’s people. In a sense, the the the the Israel connection or the the Hebrew connection is is more, is more tangential. In in the Quran, the purpose of the story is to give an example of one of Allah’s prophets, and Joseph is a prophet in the Islamic scheme of things.
And the prophet, is faithful to God. He follows God’s instructions. He follows, the instructions of Allah, and he he serves as a model for how people should follow the example of their prophets. That’s the core that’s the core message that’s coming out of the Koranic story of Joseph, not so much part of story of the people of Israel. Right.
So how is this how is Israel I mean, how is Joseph, an Israelite, a prophet of of Allah? The the fact that Joseph, as we understand it, was an Israelite is is not focused on The the concept of the people of Israel is a is a concept in the broader Koranic context, but Joseph is not specifically identified with them. He the the the Quranic story is really about using him as an example of one of Allah’s prophets who provides a model to to the faithful people. Oh, that’s big. So he he his his Israelite identity is not emphasized at all.
Wow. Peter, could you I mean, breaking it down to the maybe the nitty gritty of what’s happening in today’s world. I think one of the questions that I often am asked, and I’d really like to hear your your take on this, is is the Quran a a book of violence or a book of peace? And and those are the 2 categories that people always sort of present the question in. And how would you respond yeah.
Give us the give us the essence of the Quran. And so how would you respond to that? Yes. It it’s tricky, isn’t it? Because, you know, the media the media the media needs to talk in sound bites, so they can’t go into great complex answers.
So they have to boil things down to the lowest common denominator. And unfortunately, the lowest common denominator is far too low to make much sense. I like it. And of course, the the lowest common denominator is that either the Quran is a book of peace or the Quran is a book of violence. I mean, the the bottom line is the Quran is about the size of the New Testament.
It’s got, 6,200 verses roughly. It’s divided into 114 chapters. It represents 2 very significantly different periods of Mohammed’s life, and he played a very different role in those two periods. And so the, you get all sorts of messages coming through in the Quran, and you just can’t boil it down into one sound bite. You can you can find whatever you want in the Quran, and the bottom line is, one of the reasons that Muslims are so diverse today, is because they can find different models from the Quran and its associated literature to follow.
So, you know, you have the ISIS phenomenon. They take a very sort of literalist surface approach to the Quran. And, whereas you find other Muslims who reject the ISIS message, who find different messages in the Quran that they they prioritize, that they promote and so the Quran can actually support a whole range of quite opposite kinds of views. Perhaps I could give you an example of that, please. That would be great.
If you’d well, I mentioned earlier the question of polygamy. There’s a there’s an earlier verse, that, when I say earlier, it comes in chapter 4 in the Quran around verse 3 that says a man can marry 4 wives. So so how is a Muslim to interpret that? Well, some Muslims say well, the verse says a man can marry 4 wives, if he can treat them equally. So it’s simple.
A man can marry 4 wives. And so Muslims that take a very literalist approach to their religion interpret it like that. Other Muslims say, well, that verse, came came down at the time that, there were lots of battles and lots of men were being killed and women needed protection in that society. Therefore, it allowed for women to get protection that they needed. That was back then.
But today, we live in a different world, so the verse doesn’t have direct relevance for today. So in other words, we don’t follow it literally and anyway, a man can’t treat 4 wives equally. So, these Muslims say that actually Islam today does not allow for polygamy. Now they’re quite opposite points of view based on the same verse. And you can have that kind of discussion about a whole range of verses in the Quran.
And I think that’s one of the things that I try to do in in our course in to look at key Quranic verses and associated literature and say, well, how do Muslims interpret these same verses in quite different kinds of ways? Right. So Christians kind of fall fall into that historical, interpretation of whether or not it it it it’s, for us today. So when when, Muslims do that, when they interpret, the Quran, do they have other scriptures that speak into that or other sources that speak into that that support their argument, or is it just, they’re just open in in, interpretation? Well, they do have, there is a whole body of literature that sort of, surrounds the Quran.
And and in fact, the course that that I I run, for CIU is designed it it’s called understanding the Quran. My basic premise is that you can’t understand the Quran simply by reading Quranic verses, but you need to look at the literary context as well. Oh. And, there are, yes, there are there are other elements of literature that open up the Quranic pages to a whole range of different kinds of interpretations and explain why Muslims debate and differ and bitterly argue in some cases over certain, Koranic teachings. And as you say, it’s similar similar to the bible in that, you know, I mean, any sacred text, it can be opened up to should be opened up to interpretation.
How do people interpret the words on the page and different people will interpret them differently? So, Peter, if we’re thinking about this in the context of Christianity, we we obviously, you know, the seminary would emphasize proper hermeneutics, interpreting the bible in light of context, historical context, using commentaries, and and getting at the author’s original intended meaning. Would you say that as Muslims, do interpretation with the Quran that it’s equally complex? I certainly would. And of course, the question of getting at the author’s, original intended meaning, you know, that’s one of the basic questions of hermeneutics, isn’t it?
Right. But but quite simply, sometimes you you you can’t establish that. And so the question becomes, well, how does that text that’s sort of veiled or sort of ambiguous, how does it speak into the world today? And that’s absolutely that’s a question for the Bible. It’s a question for the Quran and they are equally complex.
So what is that process for Muslims? For Christians, I mean, someone could be sitting in their room at night, having a quiet time and come up with a theology and suddenly go to their friends and say, this is what I believe. I don’t necessarily know that I’ve encountered a whole lot of Muslims waking up in the morning having Koranic studies coming up with their own interpretations. So what is sort of the process of interpretations within Islam? Well, the again, it will depend what school of thought you’re coming out from.
Let let’s just take, for example, the very surface based, literalist kind of approach. And and, I mean, to to use a unpleasant example, we think of ISIS at the moment or that that that wing of Islam. They read a verse of the Quran and they say, well, that is God’s word. It is it is unambiguous. It is clear.
So there are certain verses in the Quran that talk about striking the necks of people. So they interpret that to justify beheadings, and we’ve heard the horror stories of beheadings coming out of the Middle East at the moment practiced by groups like ISIS. So they’re inter you know, they they interpret, but their interpretation is very simplistic. It it it it says, well, the words on the page say it, therefore you do it. It full stop.
Right. Other Muslims, as you know, are horrified by what’s going on in the Middle East with all the beheadings, and they say, look, you the Quran should not be interpreted that way. What we need to do is look to see how the schools have thought and how the different scholars have interpreted those verses down the ages and ask the question, how is it relevant for today? And there are, some mosques, for example, where you have scholars who are very rationalist minded, who are very philosophical, who are who are much more sophisticated in their interpretation and they train their people accordingly. So, in a sense, for for the average Muslim, the decision becomes what kind of teacher are they going to follow and that will determine what kind of interpretation interpretative approach they end up following.
Is it gonna be surface meaning, literalism, or is it going to be a more sophisticated, rationalist kind of interpretation that asks the question, what does it mean for today? It’s either backward looking or forward looking. You you mentioned teacher, so it seems like a lot of the the Muslims look to their teachers. How do they get to that point where they have that much respect or or a voice in, in Muslims, even in that just that area or or internationally? Yes.
Well, the the first the first hallmark of respect, I suppose, is knowing the Quran, knowing the Quranic contact, context, having studied the text. Sometimes it involves, being able to, you know, visibly recite the text. Some people memorize the whole text. So that’s the first step of recognition. Beyond that, often that first step is sufficient for the much more simplistic kinds of groups, literalist kinds of groups.
Beyond that, then there are Islamic seminaries, or indeed some mosques run specialist training schools, madrasas, for example. And so Muslims who wanna specialize become recognized specialists in their faith can go and do specialist studies just as we do in the Christian tradition, and they come out with certificates. You can do them online. They’re available in all sorts of traditional ways, but also specialist training to become an Islamic Scholar, a recognized scholar is is available in the most up to date IT online kinds of ways that, you can imagine. So there are all different ways that people can do it.
But the school they choose, the methodologic approach they choose to follow is going to sometimes produce quite different out outcomes. Peter, could you give us an example, maybe that we could draw a connection with Christianity in some of the ways in which Christians have the same sort of problems where there’s sort of the the literalist approach. I mean, would you say that that guys like ISIS would be the ones walking around plucking out their eyes and cutting off their hands because it causes them to sin. Is that the the sort of literalism that we’re talking about? Well, it is the that kind of literalism, but that literalism tends to, others tend to be the victims in the case of ISIS.
Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. It’s true.
But but yeah. I mean, you know, you can choose any number of verses from the bible, can’t you? For example, is it necessary for for women to cover their heads when they go go go to church on a Sunday? Some would say, well, the Bible says yes, so they do it. Others would say, well, that was that was in the old times.
We’ve moved on really. And, yeah. So you you you can find many verses in the Bible like that. So what do we do when we hear people saying the Quran says that I mean, clearly not Muslim. You know, typically, unfortunately, sometimes they’re they’re evangelical Christians seem to speak the loudest on this, but they speak, as that Islam is so simple.
If you just understood this theory of abrogation, you would understand this. If you just understood what the Quran really says, it means this. How should Christians respond when they hear those sorts of over simplistic interpretations of Islam? Well, I think we have to distinguish between well, we have to see the the in some ways the complementarity between Islam as a system, as a theological well, in some cases, ideological political system Mhmm. And Muslims as people and what they do with those that system and its tools.
To to say that Islam is in its essence, x or y, is is is problematic. I I would want to say, well, if you’re going to talk in those terms, then you need to say that Islam in its essence is x and y and zed and a and b and c. And often, those elements will be contradictory. What’s interesting, where I think the conversation does become valuable is when you ask the question, well, what are Muslims doing with those literary materials? And they’re arriving at quite different conclusions.
So you take you often illustrate a point by taking extremes, and you can take an extreme by using a group like Al Qaeda or ISIS or very literalist groups and holding it against some of the much more modernizing kinds of groups today. And you you look to see what they are doing with their text materials. And you you can only conclude by saying, well, clearly Muslims are doing very different things with their textual materials so there is no one essential summary statement you can make about the essence of Islam because it produces different outcomes. So we have to see Islam in its diversity and it but at the same time, the only other point I would add is we we need to we need to be willing to encompass all those different viewpoints as we look at Islam so we you don’t rule one of them out and that’s where I’m also uncomfortable when you hear people say, oh, ISIS are. You know, they’re distorting the text of Islam.
They’re not real Muslims. Therefore, they’re outside the fold. In a sense, all that does is solve the problem, solve the problem. But it is a problem. There is a problem there in that some Muslims are using their text to reach some fairly problematic conclusions.
So that’s a that’s a big challenge that Muslims have gotta gotta deal with. But, you you don’t solve the challenge by simply excommunicating 1 group who are problematic and saying, therefore, we don’t have a problem. Do you understand what I’m saying? Yeah. It’s complicated.
Well, it’s really interesting because I think within the Muslim community, a lot of people get really upset and they say, why aren’t the moderates standing up and, speaking out against the extremist? And in some ways they are, but they’re not ready to excommunicate because oftentimes I find that Muslims aren’t willing to say who is or who isn’t a Muslim because they don’t even feel like it’s their their place to do so. But, we hear a lot of Christians sort of saying who is in or who isn’t it. And most of the people that’s saying, you know, Islam is a religion of peace, I’m kinda wondering, like, they’re not even part of the Muslim community, yet they’re speaking so boldly and matter of factly about Islam, whether it be peaceful or violent. Yes.
And and that’s not a not a line I take. I I I personally don’t stand up and say Islam is x or Islam is y because, well, for a start I’m not a Muslim. Secondly, I’m aware that, when you look at all the different Muslim methods of engagement with their textual materials, actually Islam Muslims end up being x, y, zed, a, b, and c. So we have to see it in all this diversity and find the debates fascinating. I find the debates within Islam fascinating.
Peter, you mentioned yourself not being a Muslim. Do you feel like that that that Christians do have a role in sort of determining what Islam is or isn’t, or is that something for the Muslim community themselves to work out? Look, at the end of the day, for the Muslim community to work out, I think Christians do have a role in, in listening to the debates, listening to the different voices, and building relationships and partnerships with certain parts of the Muslim community. It’s it’s usually hard for Christians to build friendly relationships with the ISIS members of this world. But, as Yeah.
As the the more, as the more modernizing kinds of Muslims struggle with the ISIS members, I think we should we should do what we can to support and encourage them, but they have to work it out. We can’t work it out for them. As far as textual criticism, it’s I’ve, from what I’ve learned in in bible college is that it’s pretty recent for the bible in the last, 50 years, I guess, where people are starting to look at the Bible, more deeply. Do you find that there’s any textual criticism happening in the Quran, from the Islamic side? Now that’s a very interesting question.
It it it is in its infancy, and in some ways it’s being driven by textual criticism of the Quranic materials by non Muslim scholars who ask who who have learnt from the kinds of textual critical methods developed for the Bible and are asking those same questions of the Quranic materials. Now, the purpose of non Muslim scholars in doing that is not it’s not destructive, they’re not doing it to, you know, pull the Quran apart, but it is very challenging for Muslims. The bottom line is the standard Islamic dogma, the teaching, is that the Quran is God’s word revealed through Mohammed, perfect in every way, with absolute certainty about every dot and every dash and every letter and every word. Now the bottom line is contrary to that viewpoint, there are there is manuscript evidence out there, other historical material that suggests that actually the Quran is an evolved text, just as the Bible is an evolved text. Wow.
That’s very challenging for Muslims, and non Muslim scholars have been pursuing that. And Muslim scholars are beginning to to respond and engage with that, but it’s very much in its infancy. Are they responding out of defense or, genuine curiosity in their own? Both, actually. You’re you’re getting a very defensive response from, what I would call, I suppose, well, not completely literalist, but but people who feel that the foundations of their faith are threatened by such questions, whereas some very very modern kinds of Muslims are reacting out of curiosity and looking at the materials increasingly.
But the we’ve got a long way to go on that on that school. It’s a matter of watching this space. It’s gonna be a very interesting conversation over the next 50 years. Peter, I know that a lot of your your research too deals with the history of Islam. And, I remember you wrote a book.
What was it? Islam in Context. Is there a history of jihad that ties all the way back to, you know, the 7th, 8th, 9th century and that it’s been kind of going all the way forward and it’s just coming to its kind of peak now? Or is this relatively a new idea? I mean, I think that’s a question a lot of people are wondering.
Did jihad just kinda pop up out of nowhere, or has this been been being played out through Islam throughout the centuries? Certainly the latter. The the the history of jihad has been played out from the very time of Mohammed. As for the meaning of jihad, well, you know, we we we hear that there are two meanings. One tends to be military activity.
The other one tends to be internal purification, of of oneself. And that tension has been there from very early on as well. We’ve tended to find that in some parts of Sufism, the idea of jihad being a a question of internal personal struggle has been there since fairly early on. But, certainly, the idea of jihad being a question of military struggle to defend and, in some cases, assert the supremacy of Islam has been there from the very beginning from the from the life of Mohammed. Give us a little bit on Sufism.
And and with that, I’m kinda curious. Are individuals, are they even allowed to kinda have their own personal interpretation? It’s interesting, you know, one one of the questions we look at in in our course is is beyond the Quran, how interpretation came about and how legitimate it was. And what you find is that in the first two to 300 years of Islam, I suppose more literalist kinds of Muslims were very uncomfortable about, interpreting the Quran in any way other than in a strictly literal way. Now, inevitably, you get tensions with that.
Some people are satisfied with they want simple answers. They go to the words on the page. They interpret them literally. That’s their answer. That’s that works for some people.
Other people say, well, you know, there’s more to to life and to this world of spirituality than simply reading pages and interpreting them literally. And and Sufism evolved from very early on, I think, out of a desire and a recognition by some Muslims that, you know, the the bigger questions were not being answered by such simple approaches. Often, the the emergence of Sufism of Sufism was influenced by, mystical, traditions in some parts of the world that were conquered by Muslims such such as Iran and such as India. Right. So in a sense, if you boil down the difference between Sufi and non Sufi Islam, it boils down to the question should, sacred texts be interpreted literally or are there layers to meaning, can it be interpreted much more metaphorically?
That’s the big big tension. And you get that led on to 2 2 clear streams, one very literal stream and one much more metaphorical stream in interpretation. Now you spent a lot of time in Indonesia. One of the questions that just keeps popping up in my mind is that for a Muslim, and this is what I’ve, learned before, is that, they read the Quran in Arabic. Now in Indonesia, they’re speaking Indonesian Bahasa.
Is that correct? Yes. That’s right. And so they’re not reading the the Quran in their, in their own native language. They’re reading it in Arabic.
How do they feel about that, and and how does the, yeah, how do Muslims work together as far as their views on different, regions, and their beliefs? So Yes. The, that touches on the question of translation of the Quran, of the Arabic text of the Quran because, the Quran itself is regarded as being the Arabic text. Any translation of the Quran into other languages is not regarded as the Quran. It’s usually called an interpretation of the Quran.
So Muslims the world over, whether Arab speaking or non Arab speaking, will study the Quran in its Arabic form. But in places like Indonesia and India and so forth, they won’t necessarily be able to, understand the grammar of the of the Arabic. They might know the broad meaning of a verse, but they won’t really understand the language. So they depend a lot on the translated text and, that speak, there were big debates through the years as to whether translation should have happened at all. But certainly in from the 20th century onwards, translation of the Quran into these, what they call interpretations, has been much more common and much more widespread.
And that’s what Indonesian Muslims depend on, that’s what, you know, Bangladeshi Muslims depend on. They depend on translations into their own languages, and then they learn by rote certain key verses of the Quran in Arabic that they need for prayer and so forth. So why why are these referred to as, interpretations rather than translations? Well, I mean, you know what it’s like to translate something. The question is, are you able to absolutely capture in the translated text the the essential and total meaning of the original.
And, you know, sometimes it’s easy to do. Other times, it’s quite difficult. You know, sometimes the original text is ambiguous. Well, how do you ren how do you capture that and put it into the translated text? So you if Muslims believe that the Quran it’s it relates to their view of Quran as scripture.
They believe that it’s God’s word. They don’t believe that it’s word recorded by men that’s inspired. They believe it’s absolutely God’s word. So the divine word as they see it, they’re they’re uncomfortable about a human being translating that into a human language into a a language such as English and so forth because they’re playing with the divine word if they’re worried about what they’re losing. Now when we look at the original text for the Bible, let’s say in Greek, for instance, you’ll find grammatical errors or spellings or, yeah, punctuation.
Is there anything like that in the original, Quran? Good question. Well, it depends what your point of reference is. If if you take a modern Arabic reference grammar, grammar of Modern Standard Arabic, then I could find you verses in the Quran where the Arabic doesn’t seem to quite fit the rules. However, the answer to that would be that the rules of Arabic are not determined by modern grammars, they are determined by the Quran.
So the Arabic of the Quran must be correct. Yeah. It’s interesting, isn’t it? So the Arabic of the Quran by definition is correct and therefore modern grammars need to reflect that. Wow.
That’s so interesting. It’s an interesting one. It’s a very it’s a very high view of scripture. It’s a it’s a it’s a higher view of scripture than than in the case of the bible because we’re willing to allow for there to be sort of, yeah, grammatical problems in in the recorded word that we have today. Whereas in, it’s quite different in the in the case of the Quran.
Now are there any, texts in the Quran that, Muslims have a hard time with because of contradiction, or just, it not fitting with the regular the the general flow of the Quran or the the message of the Quran? Yes. And, earlier Trevor referred to, the concept of abrogation. This again is quite interesting. If we consider that Muslims believe that the Quran was revealed through Muhammad, over a space of, 20 odd years, 22 years.
Now it was revealed over those 22 years according to the the setting of the time, the context of the time. But, of course, context change. So sometimes you find that there are inconsistencies, what appear to be inconsistencies in the Quran, but the answer to that is that, well, actually, Allah revealed verse a in a certain setting but 5 years later there was a different setting and that that, detail needed to be adapted to the new context and that’s why you’ll find differences there. So it’s not actually a contradiction as such. It merely reflects the evolving into, the revelation that took place.
Now, you know, in a sense, we have a kind of theory of abrogation, don’t we, between the old testament and the new the new testament? Right. It’s it’s somewhat similar. Yeah. Hotly debated with all all different theological interpretations even regarding the bible, whether there’s this sort of progressive revelation.
Is there abrogation? And even Christians are having a hard time settling this. But, again, we think Muslims have kinda got it all figured out, and it’s pretty simple. But it sounds just equally complex. Well, I mean, Muslims Muslim scholars generally agree on the concept of abrogation, although some challenge it, but there’s widespread agreement.
But in terms of agreeing on the exact detail of which versus abrogate which, that’s much more contentious. You recently, published a book with John Azuma. Could you tell us a little bit about that book? Yes. It’s called, well, Islam and Christianity on the Edge Talking Points in Christian Muslim Relations into the 21st Century.
John and I were, we served as directors, of the Center for this Islamic Studies and Muslim Christian Relations at the London School of Theology over many years. And, during that time, the center held a series of, seminars, that turned into into papers. And John and I decided through through conversation to, compile those papers into a volume. So the volume that that you’re referring to actually represents the papers that were given, at the London School of Theology between 1997 and 2008, I think, plus a few that are commissioned as well. Now the purpose of the book really is to do what the subtitle says, to provide talking points in Christian Muslim relations, and it talks about all different kinds of issues.
It talks about, the question of jihad. It talks about, issues of textual criticism. It talks about, some of the diversity, the the debates among Muslims. It talks about, Christian methods in engaging with Muslims. It talks about some of the debates among Christians, for example, insider movement debates and so forth.
So so what the book tries to do is to capture some of the big issues, that are talking points in Christian engagement with Islam and to compile it into a into a user friendly volume. Peter, as we wrap it up, I’d I’d really like to know from your perspective, for listeners, as as a as a textualist, as somebody that knows knows the Quran and has studied and dedicated their life to studying Islam, both text and also knowing Muslims as people. What would you encourage listeners when they think about Muslims? You know, what should they take into consideration? And this is where you have to give that media sound bite, unfortunately.
What should we think about Muslims when we think about Muslims? I think I would probably be talking about Muslims rather than Islam. So listeners who don’t have a lot of time to sit down and do the study should engage with Muslims, try and see them in their differences, and not boil it all down into one throwaway line. That that’s excellent. That’s exactly kind of what we try to to, encourage people to do on the show.
Well, doctor Riddell or Peter. Yeah. I told them, Australians, they they go by first name basis. It’s so not natural for us here in the United States. I just wanna call you doctor Riddell, but, But, thank you so much for being on our show.
We really appreciate your time. Well, thank you. It’s an honor to be part of it, actually, and I look forward to working, further with you guys. Yeah. Thanks again.
And, have a wait. I gotta try the Australian accent. Have a good day. Is that was that okay? That was terrible, wasn’t it?
I’ll do I’ll do the best. Thanks, Peter. That was an awesome interview with Peter Riddell. Yeah. And the the music there was actually a Quran recitation competition.
What did you think? It was amazing. I mean, listeners, you can’t see the video. It’s on YouTube, but, and we can actually put it in our show notes. Hopefully, we can put a link there, but, it’s actually a really young kid.
I mean, he looks like 8, 7? Yeah. Probably a 7 or 8 year old boy, Saudi citizen. And that competition is something that they do annually where they’re you’re supposed to have memorized the entire Quran. And so kids come from all over the world to this competition to compete in order to see who is the best reciter out there.
And and Peter said that the Quran is the around the size of the new testament? That’s right. Right? So they memorize the entire thing? Oh, yeah.
Now they don’t recite the entire thing at the competition, do they? You know, I’m not exactly sure about that. If I remember correctly, they will pull out one particular ayat or a verse, and you have to go back to the beginning of the chapter of that book and recite the entire book up till that particular ayat. Wow. Yeah.
We need to confirm that, but if I remember correctly, that’s how it goes. So you do need to have the entire thing memorized. It’s kinda like those exam remember those exams where the professor like, a really good exam is basically you have to know everything, but, really, they’re only gonna ask you one thing. Right. And you don’t know which one it’s gonna be.
That’s right. Right. So you memorize everything. Yep. So, basically, they get up and they recite.
I I think that this is one reason why Muslims argue that the Quran can’t be translated either because if you hear the English text and then you hear side by side the English text and the Arabic text, if I were to recite what that young boy was reciting, you wouldn’t find it nearly as pleasing to the ear. So it’s an aesthetic thing. Well, sir, I I think so. Definitely. Yeah.
His voice was haunting. Yeah. Yeah. Especially with that little little reverb, you know, it must be a giant hall that he’s singing in, but that was pretty amazing. So what what was he singing?
He was that was from, so everything starts with that Bismillah Ar Rahman, in the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, and then he says Yazeen, which is the book, the Surah Yazeen. It says, be be the wise Quran, indeed you, speaking about Mohammed, are from among the messengers on a straight path. This is a revelation exalted in might, the merciful that you may warn a people whose forefathers were not warned, so they were unaware. Already the word has come into effect upon them. They do not believe.
Indeed, we have put shackles on their necks, and to their chins so that that with their heads kept aloft, we have put before them a barrier and behind them a barrier and covered them so they do not see. And so it it goes on sort of like this. And, basically, just a summary. It’s about, Mohammed’s prophetic status saying that he is affirmed as a prophet sent by God to, their people. So would you say, like, you know, Christians, we sing songs and we sing a lot of scripture, in our songs, as, as worship to God.
Would you say when these young kids are coming up there and reciting the Quran and singing it that way, would that be a part of their worship? Absolutely. They they look at the so for the Quran, I remember we lived with a a family in South Asia for a while. And the young boy, his name was actually Issa, which means Jesus in the Quran. Wow.
Yeah. They named him Jesus. And his parents were pretty pretty secular, actually. But even though they were secular, Iza still had to do his Quran Quran recitation practice every single day. A teacher would come and teach him to recite, and he didn’t know the words.
He didn’t speak Arabic. He didn’t know Arabic, but he learned to recite the Quran. And they wanna get to the point where they can recite the book, Yazeem, because there is that special blessing sort of associated with being able to recite the text about Mohammed’s prophetic status. Interesting. And so he that must have been so difficult for him.
Yeah. Just every single day not understanding the text and reciting it. Yeah. But, I mean, you know, I remember teaching my son, the apostle’s creed, you know, lord’s prayer, things like that. And there were things he didn’t understand, but I don’t know.
He he still was into it because it was something we were learning together, and I figured later meaning would come. And I think maybe Muslims take that same perspective. They they do think though, a lot of the Muslims that I’ve known would believe that there is a special blessing. I don’t wanna say all Muslims believe this, but there is certainly a large amount of Muslims that believe there’s a blessing associated with the recitation of the Quran. Particularly, certain books have more power and certain chapters have more power than others and more of a blessing, that are associated with them, And so this book, Yazin, is definitely one.
Interesting. So I have I have a story actually with Yazin. Okay. Go ahead. So, Muslim friend asked if I would explain the Quran to them.
Wait. Wait. Wait. Okay. A Muslim asked you.
Yes. A non Muslim. Good friend. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Well, because they know that, these are some good friends and they knew that, they were actually surprised how much, we knew about the Quran. And we told them that we had read the Quran, and we’d studied, you know, a good portions of the Quran. I wouldn’t consider myself a chronic scholar by any sense of the imagination. Peter Riddell is.
Which is why he’s on the show. Right. Yeah. And so, you know, this particular Muslim, she just asked one day, would you be willing to help me understand Yazeen? And I was like, oh, boy.
I had never never been asked that by a Muslim. Right. That’s not something you think, you know, comes to mind when you’re gonna enter the conversation with a Muslim. Because there have been so many times where I was, you know, hey, let me share the story from the Bible, and we would talk about the Bible. Or, oh, let me tell you the story from the Bible.
And, you know, she was always very interested, and my wife and I had been talking with her a lot about, you know, Jesus. And then all of a sudden, she comes with the Quran and says, I’d really like you to help me understand this. What do you what do you do? And that’s what would you do, Howard? I’m just kinda curious.
I I know what I did and and I’m I’ll get to that, but I’m kinda curious. What would you do in that situation? It’s tough because you’re coming from a different worldview, faith, obviously. And so when you explain that text you’re gonna come to different conclusions than her. Right.
And she can but she’s having a hard time with the English. Okay? Oh, okay. So she wants She can recite it in Arabic. So she’s talking about intellectually, not so much interpretation.
Well, she wants meaning. Like, what does it mean to be exalted? I mean, that’s a difficult word for, English as a second language. Right. It’s it’s difficult for a lot of Americans.
Yeah. So what is what does it mean to be exalted? What about aloft? Right. You know, what are these shackles?
What does that mean? Why are their heads, You know, and so there is a lot of interpretation going on and and she wanted just basically some explanation here. And how’d you what’d you do? Oh, man. I you know, it was one of those, like, on the spot moments where I literally was praying as she was speaking and asking the lord, like, help me here, you know.
Honestly, get me out of the situation was kinda what I was thinking. I appreciate your honesty. I don’t wanna do this. I don’t wanna teach the Quran. You know, I didn’t sign up for this.
But at the same time, I had spent so much time sharing with her about the bible And something just felt very wrong when somebody was approaching me and just asking me to do something for them that they would really like help with, and I didn’t wanna do it. So as she’s asking and as I’m praying, I just basically said, I can’t really help you as far as giving you explanation because I haven’t studied it myself. You know, I know the bible and I’d rather talk about that. And she said, no. No.
No. I love it when you teach us about the bible. We really appreciate it, but, please, we also want to know about the Quran as well. And I kinda was like, well, maybe you could ask the imam and and the imam doesn’t really talk to the the women that much at the moment or at the moment. That was one question I did have.
Like, you were talking to a woman. Yeah. Yeah. What was the scenario? Was she was she with your wife and you were with other people together?
No. This is a family that I know really well, and the husband, and brother were both home. And so it was, they They didn’t think anything of it? No. No.
It was the the sister, 2 other sisters, a brother, and they’re all interested. What is he gonna say about this chronic verse? Because they all wanna know, and they don’t wanna ask. And so I, you know, I just basically had one of those moments of, alright. I’m just gonna explain the words to them.
I said, well, you read and when there’s a word you don’t understand, I’ll help you understand it. You know, I just thought that would be the the most loving thing I could do Right. And not be a compromise of what I felt uncomfortable with, which was I don’t wanna, like, proselytize the Quran like any teacher about the Quran. Right. And so and I definitely didn’t wanna, like, bash the Quran.
Because you knew that would separate polarize. Yeah. And I and I just don’t I don’t think it’s it’s right to bash, you know, something that she really holds dear and believes wholeheartedly that I’m not gonna just use an opportunity to bash something. And so, yeah, she started asking questions. And as we were reading and then we got to, like, in Yazin, if you go on later, you know, listeners, you can read the book of Yazin, and you’ll eventually get to a place where, it talks about the hellfire.
And I we got to the hellfire, and as we were reading about the hellfire, suddenly, it occurred to me, like, this is a real place in in the Quran and this is a real place for her as a Muslim. And I said, this is terrifying stuff. And she kind of stopped and she said, what do you mean? And I said, this description of the hellfire. I said, it’s it’s terrifying And her response was, well, only for those that are gonna go there.
And I said, well, how do you know who goes and who doesn’t go? And she kinda stopped, and one of the other sisters was, like, well, I know for sure I’m not going. I can’t say for the rest of these, you know, like, pointing to her. Are you serious? Well, she she was joking.
Yeah. She’s laughing, of course. And we’re we’re kinda joking around, but then I’m I’m getting more serious, and I’m like, no. But seriously, guys, what do you think about this? How can you be certain that you yourself won’t spend eternity in the hellfire?
Because it’s a real place according to the Quran. And it’s I actually did a paper on on it in in one of my classes in the undergrad, and it it really was terrifying. They were Yeah. The descriptions are intense. Right.
So much more description of the body, fluid. Right. Wow. So yeah. So I you know?
And then they start saying, well, we won’t go because, you know, we’re good and we are good Muslims. We pray 5 times a day, and they start giving me the list of all the things they do. Right? Right. Okay?
The pillars. Yeah. And all the things. And I said, I said, can we be done with the Quran for a minute and then, talk about this? And they said, sure.
So I set the Quran down and they had brought me some food. So, you know, I knew I wasn’t gonna be reading the Quran anymore so I said, I’m gonna go ahead and eat while we have this discussion. And so I’m starting to eat and I said, you know, this is really good. And Muslims are really good at doing this. And so this is kinda where I learned how to do this.
But I said, this food is is excellent. What is it? And they said, you know, it’s a rice, lamb, curry. I said, what else is in there? I need to know all the ingredients.
And they said, you know, tomato, salt, pepper, you know, and they give me all of the different ingredients and I said, are you sure? That’s everything. And they said, we’re sure. And I said, are you sure? I’m I’m getting a little bit of a hint of pork and they all die die laughing.
They’re, like, rolling on the ground laughing like, you know we would never do that because pork is haram. Right. It’s forbidden. Right. And, I was waiting to see where you’re going with this.
Like, are you messing with it? What No. I had an idea in the head. Yeah. I’m thinking it’s holy spirit broke up.
Because you offended me a little bit, but I don’t know. And they said, you know, we would never do that. I said, why not? And they said, because it’s forbidden. It’s unclean.
And I said, but if if you did, if you had put pork in here, I would be unclean. And they said, yes. Yes. And I said, well, how much? How much pork?
And they said, any. And I said, what about the pan? What if you had just cooked some bacon in a pan and then you use the same pan to make my food? Would that also make me unclean? And they said, yes.
And I said, what about if somebody was just, you know, passing a piece of pork and a drop fell into the dish, would that make it unclean? Yes. Well, how much? The whole the whole dish, it’s unclean. And I said, so I I’m defiling myself by eating even just this one tiny thing.
I’m defiled. Yes. And I stand before God defiled and then absolutely absolutely. And I looked at the youngest one that was joking. I said, are you certain?
Are you certain about that? I’m I’m good and I don’t have to worry about the hell fires. And I kid you not, it was, like, dead silent in the room, straight look at the floor, every single one looked at the floor, and the youngest one first said, I’m not good. I am not good. And it was that moment of realization of I do stand before god defiled.
I do need some way to make this right. And yeah. It was a very, sobering sobering moment. So I I, you know, I’m thankful to God that it was opportunity that actually did come out of looking at the Quran. It’s amazing that that the youngest would admit that.
Yeah. How how old was he or she? Was it a he or she? It was a she. She was 14.
Wow. Yeah. So so aware. Yeah. Well, because they they know and they know each other and they know me and we’ve known each other for a while and Right.
They’re amongst family. They’re not really hiding anything. Yeah. Everyone’s known Everybody’s well aware that we all have at least something in our lives that makes us stand before God not worthy. Wow.
So, anyway, that was one of those, moments of really just I I I think of it as a holy spirit moment of realization that came strangely enough through the book, Yazin. Right. And pork. And pork. That’s a good combined combination.
And pork. Right. And, yeah. So back to Peter, like, I think Peter Riddell with, his knowledge of the Quran, I think that it kinda opens doors, just kinda like in your story. You know, like, if you did not know the Quran, you only knew the Bible, I think there would be a limitation to what they would really understand.
I mean, like, if someone came into me and said, hey. You know, you need to read this holy book from another religion. I would look at it and be interested on that, you know, but it wouldn’t really necessarily pertain to me so deeply. Mhmm. But whenever you open the Quran, right, that’s their book.
Mhmm. And you had this really weird interesting opportunity to be able to teach them about their book. Mhmm. And then whenever you open their eyes and then use the illustration in the everyday life, kind of the relationships that we’re that we’re talking about doing as as a as a show. Right?
You have this amazing opportunity to be able to share and the holy spirit totally capitalizes on that. Mhmm. Well, I think, you know, a lot of people wonder, do I need to that’s a question that we get a lot. Do I need to know the Quran in order to share with Muslims? And the answer is no.
You don’t need to know the Quran. Does it help? Absolutely. Right. God can use anything.
Sure. And and and I don’t necessarily and I’m not advocating here because there’s there’s gonna be naysayers out there, like, you know you know, don’t pick up the Quran and you shouldn’t read it and it’s, you know, inspired by the evil one or whatever. But there are things in the Quran that are most certainly true. I mean, the Quran does testify to Jesus being born of a virgin. Which is pretty amazing.
Pretty amazing. It’s Christmas. Right? Right. It’s Christmas time.
Yeah. You know, that’s important. So we need to do a Chris Christmas show. We need to do a Christmas show. It’ll be the week after Christmas.
We’ll do the Anglican Christmas 12 days, you know. The Anglican. That’s possible. Yeah. You stay out of my denomination.
Okay? Sorry. Alright. But we’ll do some Christmas stuff. Talk about what, Jesus’s birth is in Islam But anyway thinking about the Quran So I’m not advocating that you need the Quran in order to talk to Muslims because I don’t often use the Quran to bridge to Jesus.
I don’t think you even need the bridge with most Muslims. Most Muslims are very open to talking about Jesus. Right. Especially with, you said secular. Is that was the term you were using?
Just people that aren’t, like, so radical or die hard about it. They’re they’re I think they’re more easily open to talk about anything Yeah. When it comes to faith. Absolutely. And and thinking about how much Jesus is referenced in the Quran, thinking about how much of the biblical basis there is for the Quran to even stand, I think it’s important to know because when you talk about things like sin, if you didn’t if you didn’t know the Quran, you might not talk about sin in the concept of defilement.
Okay. Explain. Well, we we talk about sin as in right and wrong, deeds, actions. Right? Right.
But when you read the book of Leviticus, you’re talking about clean and unclean. Yeah. All the time. Well, when you read the book of when you read the Quran, it’s about clean and unclean defilement. And so there’s a there’s a worldview that’s there present within the Quran that if you can see the gospel speaks to it and it uses a certain language.
So that idea of veering from the straight path, veering from the path of Allah, veering from the path of Allah’s guidance, you can talk to a Muslim about have you ever strayed from God’s path and they get it. They know what you’re asking them. Now you might say, have you ever sinned? You know, if you died tonight, would you, you know, give them the 4 spiritual laws? There would be no context.
No context. But have you ever strayed from the path of God’s guidance? Basically, you’re asking them, have you ever not done what the book or the revelation tells you to do with the the things that God has revealed? And the answer is most certainly yes. So it’s not so much, your calling or God’s will.
It’s more than that. It’s strength in the path, not doing, not being, in obedience. Right. Right. And you’re using their language.
Now what I find fascinating is that when you read the church fathers, when you read the the 7th century, 8th century, 6th century, writings of the Christian church Uh-huh. They use the same language. And I think there’s really something there. I wish I had time to do more reading about how we could use the ways in which the church was talking about issues of sin and salvation in the 6th, 7th, 8th century as to be relevant for today dealing with Muslims because they use the same type of language. There’s a religious language of the day, dude.
I think there’s an article there that we could put up on in the plumber center or something like that. That would be really cool. Yeah. Because we have talked about this, you and I, before, just about our different views, our differing views, how kind of, our our doctrine or the way we see certain aspects of our faith has changed from, earlier in church history and how how things have kind of fallen out of favor, and we see things totally different. Like, you know, of course, being American, obviously, this is a oversimplification, but, being more individualistic than, let’s say, a shame based culture, more traditional culture, maybe like in Asia where people are worried about their their household rather than just themselves.
Oh, man. This Sunday, I heard a testimony from an Iraqi Christian. At your church? Yes. Okay.
He’s, studying and, it was fascinating. He’s studying at the local university and he was kinda sharing his testimony about his family members back in Iraq and the suffering that they’re encountering under ISIS, and amazing testimony. But the very first question that was asked to him, from the pastor was, how long have you been a Christian? You you know what his answer was? What?
Well, I was born Christian. In That’s uncomfortable. Yeah. Everybody in the room is like, wait a second. Does he know Jesus?
Can you Does he have a personal relationship? Well, we immediately think about that personal relationship, right, But then he articulated it. He said, well, I was born Christian. I’ve been Christian since I was born because I trace my Christian heritage back 10 generations, and I can name every one of them. Right.
It’s a household thing. But that’s a strong, you know, root of faith. Right. Not something to be like, well, does he personally know? Of course, he personally knows Jesus.
Right. That’s the territory. It’s not even in his mind to have that context. So I personally know Jesus because he doesn’t know Jesus apart from these 10 generations of heritage, which I was just, like, I was amazed. I was impressed.
Right. Very thankful for the way that he articulated. Eye opening. Yeah. For him, it’s like, well, my whole family is Christian because we have been for 10 generations.
Yeah. And then he this is who we are. And then he began to articulate what that meant, and this guy was a die hard believer. He knew the lord intimately intimately, you know, But the way he in which he he worded it was very different. Anyway, when I when I was, you know, thinking about those dealing with, some of the questions we asked Peter, what I found probably most interesting was right at the beginning when he said what drew him into studying the Quran was actually, his own faith and looking at some of the discrepancies within the Quran and then that bringing up questions in his own faith.
And it’s really neat that he is an expert in another religious text, but also brings his own sort of experience from his own religion. And it it makes the other, more rich that he his own faith has been increased through studying another religious text. Right. Yeah. I don’t actually even think of it in terms of that, but I think when you experience okay.
Okay. This is this is me personally, but I love pho. Pho is Vietnamese noodles. Okay? And when I first started eating Vietnamese noodles, I, you know, I thought it was okay, but I would taste it, and I would think, oh, this is really good.
But then, I went to Atlanta, and I had pho in, like, you know, this really famous pho restaurant in Atlanta. Mhmm. And it was infinitely better, and I had no idea because I had no context. You know? So whenever, I went and eat the pho nowadays, I’ve had really good pho, and I can kind of tell whether or not, you know, pho’s, you know, at up you know, the utmost quality or whatever.
So it kinda reminds me, like, when when Peter reads the the Quran, I think his faith in in Christ kind of really give new perspective. Yeah. Probably that maybe he wouldn’t see if he just didn’t have faith at all. He’s just reading this this religious text and and not thinking that. But, anyway, so in terms of, what we’re saying here, I guess, is that it is good to know the Quran.
It is good to know because, you know, you really you’re you’re gaining, I guess, a credibility. If you’re real if you really have a heart for Muslims, and this is maybe something that you want to do, it would be a good thing to to learn the Quran and Quran and be able to speak to people on their own terms. I think I think at least it would give you a platform because Muslims are gonna ask you if you ever read the Quran. Right. Because then they’re like, you know, then what are you what are you telling me about religion?
I think it’s a good question though, especially if we’re speaking negatively about a religion. Exactly. Because you don’t really know. Like when somebody’s like, well, I just don’t like Christians because I think the Bible is this. And it’s like, we’ve ever read it?
And they’re like, well, no. Yeah. Exactly. It it it takes the argument out of your mouth. Yeah.
And, and but I think it’s also really good balance with Trevor. What Trevor was saying was that you don’t need to know the Quran to speak to Muslims. Don’t let that stop you. So it’s kind of like this balanced, you know, like, if you’re really interested, then go for it. Read it.
Read the Quran. We have a lot of translations now. Right? Like you said. Mhmm.
And and, we’re it’s accessible. And then with Muslims, it’s really cool to be able even to use that as a gateway. Like, hey. I’ve been reading the Quran. Really?
You’re a Christian. Yeah. But I’ve been reading the Quran because I’m interested. Can you explain some of these passages to me? I mean, just real quick.
I mean, if you think about it, like, you could be reading the Quran and come across where Jesus, you know, cleanses a leper. And there’s no story. We just know that he could cleanse the leper, that he could give sight to the blind, that he could raise the dead, that he could do all of these amazing things in the Quran, but there’s no context of the story. You could literally just go to your Muslim friend and say, I had no idea that the Quran said so much about Jesus, but also was missing so much of the stories. I know those stories.
Could I share those with you? And Muslims would be so excited to hear. Right. Because it’s filling in the missing pieces. Yeah.
Right. Like, have you ever heard the story where he raises the dead? They’re like, no. Do tell. Yeah.
Please. I’m interested. I’m all ears. I’m I’m always for a a good old dead raising story. I mean, who wouldn’t wanna hear that story?
And so you can tell us as a hero. Issa. Yeah. Yeah. So or Jesus.
Right? But yeah. So, anyway, that’s, that’s our show for this week. Yeah. Again, we are so appreciative of you guys listening and downloading and sending, this on to your friends.
Please, social media, put it out there. Whether you use Twitter or Facebook, just put our put our, link in there. Just, get people to subscribe. And something else that we want people to do is to write reviews. Yeah.
We gotta give a shout out to our first reviewer. Yeah. I was really excited. Someone else. Grace.
We appreciate it. You know, because some of the times we’re wondering, like, how many people are listening? We go and we look at the demographics, and we’re like, woah. Right. There aren’t a bunch of people listening, and then we don’t know what they think.
Yeah. And so when Grace wrote our first review, we don’t know who Grace is, but Grace, we appreciate it. Right. It was not it wasn’t us. We didn’t write it.
Yeah. Trevor didn’t write it. And it was a it was a really good question you asked. So where do I write my comments? Because we keep saying, hey, guys.
Write in. Yeah. And I don’t we’ve ever said where to write in. Right. So, go to and here’s the thing.
We just went to go set this up, and we had some problems. So, hopefully, it’ll be set up by the time this podcast releases sometime tomorrow. But, it’s comments at truthaboutmuslims.com. Comments attruthaboutmuslims.com. Alright.
And, just to say, we have, feature we feature music all over. We get it from SoundCloud and, Creative Commons licensing, but we just gotta mention who they are. So, dj4 is one of the the guys. His track was Break Hands and Comfortable. Hyde, that was the Mumford and Sons sounding, song.
Kama Sama and then Nick Bite. So thank you guys for producing that awesome music, and, we hope you guys enjoyed this podcast. We’ll see you next week. Yeah. I just like the idea of break dancing.
Yeah. Well, I’m not a dancer, but yeah. Okay. Well, we’ll see you guys next week. I’m just thinking break dance fighting, you know, like break it down.
Okay. Oh, Beat Street. Okay. Okay. We’re gone.
Bye. See you later.
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Here starts the auto-generated transcription of Iranian American Shirin Taber’s Story:
Once again, Muslim terrorists A terrorist Islamic extremists down to the mistresses of the country. Random terrorism brutal identity. Newsflash America. These is not irrelevant. It is a warning.
Welcome to the Truth About Muslims podcast, the official podcast of the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media. Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. This week’s sponsor. As always, CIU, Columbia International University equips students with a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ. And Zwemer Center.
Zwemer Center equips the church to reach out to Muslims with understanding. And the Zwemer Center has been around since 1979. So they’ve noticed themselves. Yeah. They know what they’re talking about.
Zwemer Center is, zwemer.com. That’s z w e m e r. I had I had to spell it because people were asking. Right. Okay.
Here we are with episode 10. We’ve got an excellent interview that I’m super excited about today with, well, we don’t really know how to pronounce her name Yet. Yet. But I’m gonna go with Sharyn Taber. That’s what I Howard Howard says it’s a shit in.
So what? He has an Asian feel to it. I don’t know. Maybe it’s his Korean that’s coming out. Alright.
Listen. You listeners, please write in. Be on my side. Sure. I said sure in first.
Anyway, she is the author of Muslims next door that’s put out by Zondervan and also the book wanting all the right things and that’s put out by relevance. So Muslims next door is the book that we’re gonna be talking about today, and I’m I’m I’m excited. We’ve been looking at the book this morning, and it looks like good stuff. Yeah. It’s really comprehensive.
There’s so much stuff that you can go through and just apply, I think, and help your, inform your understanding, of Muslims. And she tells her story too, which is pretty cool. And that’s what we kinda wanna get to today. Absolutely. Because she she comes from, well, we’ll let her tell the story, but just kind of as an intro, she has a Muslim father.
Her mother was Catholic. She is, American Iranian. And, you know, being, Iranian American, I don’t which one do you say first, actually? Iranian American or American Iranian? Well I guess we’ll let her say.
For me Yeah. There you go. You say Korean American. What’s up with that? Korean American car?
American Korean? Yeah. No. You do. You say Korean American.
Korean American. So Iranian American, I think. Yeah. No. No.
No. That’d be fine. Yeah. So, anyway, she, she served with, crew for 20 years. Wow.
That’s a long time. Formerly known as campus crusade. I still can’t I have a hard time getting on board with Crew. I keep, you know, it’s been Campus Crusade in my mind for so many years, and and I’m not even a fan of the word crusade. I don’t know if I ever have been, but Campus crusade has got, like, an identity in my mind.
Right. And crew is sounds cool, and their logo their new logo looks cool, but, I just don’t identify that with them. But that’s that’s just me. Yeah. It’s just gonna take a while to rebrand get us old guys out of there.
Crew. So she served with crew as a college student, and was 20 years in direct ministry in the United States, Europe, and the Middle East. Wow. And, has been working with Muslims the whole time. And I just think, you know, she has a real and and that’s why the title of this episode is, an insider’s perspective or an insider’s view.
She’s gonna give us the insider’s view on Muslims Next door because she has grown up as, I guess with I would I would assume a a multiplicity of identities, you know, having a Muslim father, Catholic mother, Iranian, American, I just I’m really excited to hear her story. Right, me too. So, without further ado Yeah, let’s give her a call. Alright. Hi, Trevor.
How are you guys? We’re doing good and this is Howard here. Hi. Hi, Howard. Good morning.
So we had a little bit of a day, debate before calling you on how to pronounce your name. Would you go ahead and settle that for us? Yes. Okay. So it’s Shereen.
Shereen. We were off. Both of us lost. Most people say Sheerin. Oh, that’s what we said.
Yes. But, it’s Persian, and there is no n sound in in that part of the world. So it’s Sheerin. It’s a long e sound, the I. The second I is like a long e sound.
Yeah. It you know, it sounds much nicer when you say it. We butcher names. I don’t know. Shireen sounds nicer than Shereen.
So we were both wrong. Shireen Taber. Shireen Taber. So my married name is obviously, you know, Anglo. Right.
Yeah. We got that part right. Yeah. Well, thanks thanks so much for joining us. We’ve been, we’ve been looking at your book this morning and really excited to hear about your story.
Thank you. Yeah. I look forward to sharing. Yeah. So, why don’t we just get started with, what what made you wanna write this particular book?
No. Well, I, you know, I was very concerned after 9:11, and I was getting calls from friends that were saying, are you okay? You know, we’re worried about the backlash towards Muslims even in America. I don’t know if, you know, if you all, were following the the news back then. That was quite a while ago.
But No. We were following it very closely. Yeah. I was actually yeah. I was on my way to a church.
How old you are. You you could be 24 or you could be older and remember. I mean, a lot of the younger people don’t really remember what happened. But, but, my point is that, the, rate of, you know, prejudice acts or outlash outlashes towards the Muslim community was quite high. And so it took me back to my childhood experience of experiencing the hostage crisis in 1979.
And I was a young girl, but I I very much remembered how it felt to feel like an outsider and not only an outsider, but, you know, associated with the terrorist community. And, and I felt like, wow. This is a great opportunity to share with my American neighbors, you know, who are these Muslims? Why have they come to America? What are they looking for?
And for Christians in particular, you know, what an amazing opportunity we have to reach out to them, at a time where they’re feeling very vulnerable and misunderstood. So, really, it was a book of building bridges, encouraging a Christian, community to continue to move towards their neighbors in love. Wow. Address addressing the fear and even hatred they might feel, and ultimately just equipping them a handbook on how what does that look like when you reach out to your Muslim coworker, colleague, a student on campus. Well So I I I don’t really handle Islam or the theology other than, sharing some points we have in common, which might be a bridge in, you know, sharing the gospel.
Right. Yeah. So that’s interesting because you in in light of 911, you took you didn’t take a back seat. You went and took it to your American neighbors and tried to help, help them understand and, to reach out to them. That that’s amazing.
Yeah. I was really I was hoping with the addition approach. It was a really, interesting experience while I was writing the book. I felt like I had, many moments where the Lord was saying, use this book to inspire people and to really help Christians identify the heart of the gospel which is a message of love. And if you can’t if you can’t experience towards those who are hardest to love, then, you know, what good is the gospel?
I mean, what good is the Christian life? And that’s what we try to get across in the show. Yeah. Yeah. Shireen, we we call the show truth about Muslims as opposed to truth about Islam because we’re much more interested in talking about Muslims than we are talking about the theology of Islam because it’s the people that we’re interested in.
And so it’s really interesting that you’d kind of you draw that distinction already. We like you. Thank you. Yeah. Well, you know, I grew up in a home with a Muslim father.
I mean, in fact, right now, he’s been in and out of the hospital and I just have it’s hard, but I have to go back to, you know, what has Christ called me to do? And Wow. Just serving him even though he’s still I’ve asked him multiple times to really consider Christ and to pray with him, and he’s, you know, still a Muslim. And that’s where he’s at. You know?
And so God just he continues to show me that I need to address issues in my own heart and, you know, and and as I’m transformed, then hopefully others will be transformed around me. You mentioned after 9:11 that it was, a reminder of what it was like, as a child to go through the Iranian revolution and feel like an outsider. Could you, give us a little bit more about that so that listeners can understand kinda your background? Sure. Yeah.
I mean, it’s a really painful time. I was a young girl. I was, in junior high. And, you know, when you’re in junior high, you just wanna be as normal as possible. Right.
Like, fly fly under the radar. You’re going through so many changes, you know, puberty and all that stuff. Right. Howard has a junior high, daughter, so he understands the awkward years of junior high. Yes.
Right. Right. Right. It’s it’s a tough tough time. I mean, you’re looking around your peers and you just so much want to be like them.
And I wasn’t, you know. I I really identify with the character in, I don’t know if you remember that movie, The Exact Greek Wedding. Oh, yeah. I love that movie. Excellent movie.
I don’t know if you remember. There’s a scene where she had flashbacks of being in high school and, you know, all the cute blonde girls and she just kinda forgot. Like, it’s. And, I mean, I’m I’m definitely, you know, I’m part of American but, because of my coloring and because I had moved back from Iran in 5th grade, my teachers and and classmates knew I was Iranian. Wow.
There’s no way to hide that. What what state were you what state was this that you were growing up in yeah. We were actually in Washington, Seattle, which is a pretty progressive area. Yeah. But, but, you know, I mean, the hostage crisis was real.
There were Oh, yeah. People pinning up yellow ribbons everywhere and the news. And, there were songs on the radio, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, you’re on. Gosh. And So so how did people react to you?
Is did they know you were Iranian or were you kinda, like, Oh, yeah. Afraid to even say? Because I I’ve heard this one particular Iranian comedian say that during the, you know, the 1979 revolution and then after Not Without My Daughter, he wanted to change his name to Tony. Yes. Yes.
I have relatives that changed their names to Tony. Oh my. Yeah. And David and Mike and all Wow. Other names.
Yeah. Yeah. I can I can just say it was when I was as a young girl, you know, 11, 12 years old, I was introduced to ideas of shame and guilt Mhmm? At a very profound level. Wow.
And, even though I was not a part of, you know, obviously, the violence, I wasn’t even there at the time. I felt associated with it. And I had teachers that stopped me in the hall and would say, Shareen, is it true that you’re Iranian? You know, I heard that you’re Iranian. You know, what do you say?
You’re just looking at them wide eyed. And then there’d be kids in the hall, boys in particular, that, you know, would kinda roughhouse and tease me and, you know, push my brothers around in particular who are a little younger than me. Push them around near the, you know, bathroom and make jokes about, you know, taking hostages. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
We got through that, but I just remember looking around and thinking, oh, I just wanna feel normal. I just wanna be a normal kid. You know, why do I have to have this stigma associated with me? Flash forward, you know, 6, 7 years later, I, you know, started walking with Christ through a neighbor. I can tell that story more later.
But, a group of Christians who are with Campus Crusade for Christ treated me completely different. They’re like, wow. That’s so exotic. That’s so amazing that you’re from, you know, your parent is from Iran. That’s so cool.
They’re like, wow. Think of all the things you can do in life because you are multicultural. And, they challenged me actually to embrace my heritage and then, of course, use it for the kingdom. Well, Shareen, it sounds like that would be something that a lot of listeners would like to know. So what was it that actually drew you to Christ through these folks?
Like, a little bit about your testimony because it seems like so many Muslims right now are in that same boat that you’re in. They just wanna feel normal. Everything they see in the media Yeah. Is demonizing them. And so what what was it about these people that drew you to Jesus?
Yeah. Well, you know, the I did my mother was Catholic, so I had some knowledge of the gospel. Mhmm. But the the, you know, the inciting incident, for example, would be my mother passed away, a year later in 1980. And, we had a neighbor across the street who came in and just completely took over.
And, the enormity of her love and her service to my family was, I mean, I’ve never seen that before. She just, you know, provided meals and carpooled us and, you know, fed us and got us Christmas gifts and just her love. And then, of course, then she began to share Christ with us and, you know, sharing that I couldn’t, you know how could I go through with my mother’s death and and approach my future alone. And so she encouraged me to receive Christ. And, you know, it was so compelling because her lifestyle backed up her words.
So, it seems like Pamela was pretty influential in you coming to know Jesus. Yes. She was. She was a neighbor that lived, across the street. Even though she had 3 children of her own, she made time for our family, and she she just provided for us in ways that were extraordinary and, providing meals.
She had the church praying for us. You know, she made time out of her schedule to help us with getting us to sporting activities and including us in her family and taking us to church. All these things, you know, combined, just gave a magnitude to her her her sharing Christ with us. Yeah. And, it doesn’t seem like that’s very normal within, you know, an American context.
Like, if you were in Iran and and you knew a neighbor that maybe had lost a mother, that you would see a lot of people kind of reaching out. But in in the United States, we don’t often see that. So that’s pretty amazing for this lady to take that role. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. No. She did. She just she was an exceptional human being. But you know what?
It serves an as an example, as a template for me. And, you know, I followed her lead over the years, and we’ve had a lot of students and people in our home and sharing Christ with them. And that’s just the power of, you know, a role model, a disciple, someone who really takes it seriously, you know, God’s call for us to to love our neighbors as ourselves, and I saw it firsthand. I continue to see it. Yeah.
Absolutely. Did you get the chance, to travel at all through the Middle East, and what were some of your experiences? Or maybe even Iran. Oh. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Definitely. So after I graduated from University of Washington, I, you know, I felt a call on my life to to serve internationally. And so I joined, the ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ, and I was, very involved in campus ministry with college students. And I’ve lived and worked in the Middle East and in Europe and the US.
And I traveled extensively throughout North Africa and the Middle East, including Iran. Some trips were, you know, more just to, to visit, and, others were trips where we actually working and serving the minority churches in that region. Right. In your book you in your book you mentioned, when you tried to go back to Iran after you had been married. Oh, yeah.
That was a really interesting story. Tell us tell us about that. What happened there? I forgot about that. Well, I I came to find out.
Initially, I thought it would be no big deal to travel back to to visit my dad. He really wanted me to come back and visit him. And I was about 30 years old and, you know, relatively newly married, and I had 2 little kids. And I thought it would be a piece of cake, and I found out I needed a passport to go to Iran. Right.
And I was like, oh, Iranian passport. Yes. Wow. Yes. And, it’s, come to find out that because of my heritage, they viewed me as, Iranian and, like my father.
And so, therefore, I had to have a passport, Iranian passport to travel there. It was really difficult. This part I don’t know if I can share too much about this, in the interview, but, it’s really tough being, you know, a follower of Christ and traveling into that part of the world. And so they challenged me on several levels about, you know, my marriage certificate, that it was a Christian wedding, and they challenged me on a lot of issues. It was really tough to get the paperwork to be able to travel.
So I did finally I was able to go, but it was a very difficult getting in and out. And I I probably won’t be doing that again in near in near future. Yeah. So so for their for the government, the government was asking you questions about your faith and your religion. Yes.
Wow. That’s interesting. They didn’t understand why I was not Muslim like my father. Yeah. It seems like there would be no context for an Iranian that wasn’t Muslim, then it must have threw them into a little bit of, confusion.
They did not well, they didn’t recognize my Christian wedding certificate. They said that I was not legally married according to their their laws. Oh. I would have to have a Muslim Muslim wedding to be considered legally married. Oh, man.
And, yeah, that my children were not my children. They were my husband’s children. Wow. So it was really tough. But I I went back 7 times and, was able to finally get the documentation.
But it’s it’s really tough, really tough to travel to that part of the world. I don’t don’t recommend it unless you, you, you know, you really have everything in order and you’re ready Yeah. To deal with those those challenges. Shareen, what what has it been like, for your relationship with your father, being Christian? And you mentioned your father being being Muslim.
Would you be okay with sharing a little bit about what been been like for you and him? Yeah. Of course. I mean, I grew up in a home where, you know, my parents, you know, they chose to marry each other. My mother was Catholic.
My father was Iranian and Muslim. We lived a blended life of cultures and languages and traditions. So we’ve navigated it, you know, as a family all these years. Definitely, there are some points that we don’t we don’t talk about, just because they’re they’re create misunderstandings. And, you know, some of the projects I’ve done over the years, I don’t share those with my family, my my, Iranian relatives.
Right. Some are for security reasons. Some are just you know, they’re, outside the box for them. But, in general, it’s it’s been an amazing opportunity because it’s it’s part of my heritage. That’s what compelled me to continue to share and continue to work in that part of the world and resource that part of the world.
I live with attention every day every day. And I think, it’s compelling. You know? It it would I have friends that their parents have come to faith in Christ, and they just pretty much go on with their lives and they embrace, you know, the American dream. And and and yet I feel like, you know, I’m regularly reminded that I can’t just forget about that part of the world and Muslim people, that it’s still, you know, a part of my life.
And my kids’ lives. My kids have grown up with, you know, Muslim relatives. My stepmom and dad remarried a very devout Muslim woman. So when she stays with us, she prays 5 times a day in her home. And And they see that.
Kids are Right. Confronted with that. Yeah. And it’s do you know? It’s good.
It just keeps everything very real. You know, we watch the news as a family, and my kids are drawn to those stories of ISIS. And my son is, in college and wants to go and actually serve in that region. Wow. You know, why?
Because it’s part of his heritage, and he feels like he’s part of that great story. Right. He wants He wants to participate. Yeah. And you mentioned heritage.
Is it difficult for you to separate, the the the is the Islam or Muslim, from the from the heritage of, Iran? No. No. They’re so no. Not at all because, you know, the Iranians are they are a culture unto themselves.
They’re different than the Arabs or they’re different than the church. Right. And there are things there are things that are that are, you know, Iranian in nature that are different than Islam. And, you know, most Iranians would tell you that they were not Muslim to begin with. You know?
They were conquered by the Arabs. And and then more recently, in light of the regime change, where they were under a monarchy and now they’re under, you know, religious hotel, dictatorship. Right. You know, they’re very aware of how their life styles have changed. Their people inside their homes or their parties, they’re fully Persian.
They’re fully Iranian. So it there is a distinction. But, you know, they they’re still Muslim. They’re not gonna say they’re anything else. Right.
Right. I think I think that’s one of the misconceptions that people often have is that there is no distinction between cultural identity and religious identity. And they just kinda see these as, you know, intricately weaved together and inseparable. But it sounds like you’re saying that, you know, you can be, fully Persian and also a follower of Christ, and there’s, no problem with that for you. That’s that’s very encouraging.
Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. So looking at, 911, you said that that kind of promoted a lot of the misconceptions struck with how and I’m sure this has happened all throughout. I struck with how and I’m sure this has happened all throughout history, but how quickly, you know, an event or something that happened in one location in the world would affect, you know, 100 and 1,000 and millions of people that were not with at all.
Right. And I you know? And and if you really do know your Muslim neighbor or colleague or coworker, for the most part, 90% of the time, they’re fairly moderate. They’re fairly secular. And the very reason why they come to this country is because they’re looking for the same things that we’re looking for.
They’re looking for, you know, freedom of speech, freedom of thought. They wanna, you know, raise if they have daughters, they wanna raise their daughters in a a society that promotes equality and will give their kids every opportunity that they can. And so, you know, but so quickly, you forget those things and just kind of canvas the whole Muslim world as if, you know, they are exactly like what we’re seeing right now in the news, you know, ISIS and so forth. Now I don’t wanna diminish the fact that there are elements in Islam, that very quickly can blow up and turn into, like, what we’re seeing in Islam. No no pun intended.
Yes. Exactly. There there are things that, you know, we can’t identify with where you can have very quickly in the Middle East a mom mentality you can have. But I don’t think that needs to be a fear for us here in America. Right.
And and you do mention a little bit in the book about sort of the historical background between some of that mob mentality that’s kind of been perpetuated. Right? Yes. Yes. Yes.
And I, one thing I’ve tried to share with my colleagues, even some who are, in Christian full time ministry, and they’ll get frustrated with, believers in Christ who come from a Muslim heritage. You know, let’s say a Christian Iranian Christian or Arab Christian, but they’ve only been a Christian for 10 years or 20 years. And they’ll make comments, you know, where they will disparage them. And I have to remind them, you know, we are a first generation of believers. I’m a first generation in a line of, that goes back, you know, 1600 years to Mohammed.
And so my life as a Christian is gonna look different than someone who comes from a heritage where their grandparents, their great grandparents, and their great great grandparents were, you know, Christian and going to church and establish these ones and, you know, things that we take for granted. Those are things you passed on from generation to generation, how you live your life, your morals, your values, your your integrity, your, you know, believing that lying, for example, is is not a good thing or whatever it is. Right. And, so my point is that, you know, we as a nation have embraced, freedom of speech or First Amendment or going back in time, you know, the enlightenment and the Protestant, you know, reformation. All these things have shaped our psyche and our value system.
But when you’re coming from the Middle East, these are fairly new ideals. And for some people, they don’t even accept them. So we just see a lot of patience in in relating to our Muslim neighbors and then those who even come to Christ need to realize that these things will played out in 2 and 3 generations. That is an amazing point. I’ve never I’ve never thought about that.
I’ve I’ve always known about, cultural differences between Muslim background believers, but I just never thought I never I never thought in those terms and just how much their just their worldview might be completely different than than someone that has a a heritage of, Christian faith. That that’s amazing. Yes. Very much so. And so I always say, hey, it’s gonna take 2 or 3 generations.
Right. Please be gracious with my brother or sister. Right. Absolutely. Frustrated with their world view.
And I see those changes in my household. You know, I married, you know, a guy who’s white and Lutheran and Uh-huh. And, you know, blue eyes. And and then I see that, you know, his his way of living and thinking has affected my children. And even though my children have a or Iranian heritage and their grandfather’s Muslim, I see, the things that my husband has added to their lives.
But I still hang on to some of our Iranian culture too because there are things that are beautiful in in the Middle East that I want my kids to hang on to. Right. Yeah. The concept of not. I was kinda wondering, Shireen, if there’s, maybe some things in the Iranian world view that would maybe challenge some of our western views of theology and the ways that we relate to God and maybe, we could learn a great deal from Muslims that come to know Jesus and think about God differently than maybe we do.
Could you share maybe some of those things that you’ve seen Yes. In in the church in the west? Definitely. I mean, I can share more, later. But, you know, the the way I raise my kids, honestly I mean, there is this aspect of, biblical Christianity and our values.
But then there are things in Iranian culture, things like hospitality and Mhmm. And modesty and, you know, showing respect to, our elders Right. Serving people when they come in their home, you know, that our guests are first. All these things these are things that I learned through my Iranian heritage. I did not learn them, you know, just living in American culture.
Now I’m not saying it’s not there. It is I’m sure there are it is there. You do have to look hard for it. Yeah. I mean, if you just watch TV all day and you’re on the Internet, you’re not gonna learn it.
It it really has to be something passed down from your grandparents or you just you know, you’re part of an amazing community. But, yeah, my girls, in particular, I find very, much more difficult to raise daughters here than it would be in a, you know, in your not in a I’m not saying a Muslim context, but in Iranian context Right. Where times are very little. It’s just a given that you’re hospitable and you’re modest and you’re polite and you’re you’re goal oriented, but you still, you know, you work towards showing respect to your parents. And, you know, and not that every Iranian or Middle Eastern home is perfect, but those are definitely ideals that are sewn into the culture again.
We see that as a common theme. You’re right. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
And I I I see that too, like, with my girls. Howard’s Korean, by the way. Yeah. I’m Korean. My my my wife is American.
And so we Oh, okay. Great. And so we have kind of that interesting thing too that we we kinda see them picking up certain things. But it’s difficult when the rest of their peers, are not learning these things or it it’s not being reinforced by the culture around. And so something that you’re trying to instill in your in your daughters, you know, it’s it’s being countered by the world, by the by the culture we live in.
So it yeah. I totally understand. It it’s difficult. Yeah. So okay.
Yeah. Yeah. I think we strove up in common and, yeah, Asian and Middle Eastern, the way we, yeah, the way we raise our kids. So, in in your book, Shireen, you mentioned that one of the key components is being able to, live your Christian faith, authentically with your Muslim friends. Could you give us, like, a few examples of what you mean?
What does it mean to live an authentic Christian faith with Muslims? Yes. That’s a great question. Yeah. First of all, I’d like to share that, the idea of living authentically is to not be ashamed of the fact that you’re a Christian.
That oftentimes, Muslims, when they come to the US, even if they were to meet you in their homeland, if you’re an American or even if you have an Asian or African heritage, they’re gonna assume that you are a Christian. They may not understand what it means to fully be committed and surrendered to Christ, but they’re just gonna assume you are. So you don’t need to make any apologies for who you are in your faith. Right. Yeah.
That’s a little bit different. Curious. Yeah. They’re gonna be curious to see, okay, what does this look like in, you know, the modern world? What does this look like day to day in a workplace or in the context of a friendship or, you know, on campus or in your marriage?
And so, yeah, there’s no reason to, make excuses or, if anything, live it out boldly and dynamically. And then the other point I would make is, you know, just roll through life with your Muslim friends. We don’t have to, always be doing spiritual activities with people to somehow point them to Christ? Yes, of course. You know, it would be awesome if you could invite them to church or a small group, and offer to pray with them and to give them a scripture or to point them to some, media, perhaps, Christian broadcasting or or Christian films.
But, ultimately, they have to see you just living your life. You know? It’s it’s having third parties and, you know, going if if you’re a parent, you know, being standing next to each other on the soccer field and cheering on your kids. And if if they’re struggling in a relationship or their marriage, you know, really taking an interest and offering to walk with them through that, realizing that Muslims, they oftentimes feel very deeply, whether they’re grieving the death of someone or a broken relationship, that you would just enter into life with them and just, you know, be Christ to them as much as you can. It’s really interesting it’s really interesting that you say that, Shareen, because in our context, we think of, the gospel as being something that we hope to eventually get to in relationship and we kinda have this friendship evangelism.
And then, you know, maybe a year from now, we tell someone we’re Christian. But with a Muslim, you’re saying go ahead, dive right in, live boldly for Christ in front of them that they actually are anticipating and expect that from you. Yes. Yes. Definitely.
Definitely. And And you never know how God is gonna work. I’ve been in friendships with Muslims where I’ll think, oh, wow. This could be, like, a 3 year, you know, marathon. And then within 3 months or even 3 weeks, I will see significant shifts and and very deep conversations and people even praying to receive Christ.
Wow. Receiving Christ. They don’t even yeah. They don’t even know that they’re actually crossing a line spiritually. They may not even call themselves a Christian initially, but they want Christ.
They want to experience this dynamic relationship with God. And so you just don’t know how things are going to play out. And so my advice is love them passionately and enter in and just roll through life. You don’t need to make a lot of changes in your schedule. Just, you know, invite them to participate as much as possible.
I I love how non programmatic you’re making it sound. It sounds so organic where this is just gonna be a natural fruit of you entering into life with them. Mhmm. And then them seeing that authentic authenticity in there in your life and how much you do love Christ and how that just kinda shows through in everything you do. And it kinda takes the I think it takes the pressure off for our listeners to have to be, like, scholars.
Have a dynamic presentation. Apologetics, you know, all these kind of things. But you’re just saying, hey. Live life. Feel what you feel with them.
Yeah. Show them Christ in your own life and and things to happen. It’s Redeeming the ordinary. Right. It really does.
Yeah. Because they like I said, they are curious, and they want to to see and learn. And, I’ve lived in Europe and and the Middle East and the US, and I I found that living in Paris, France would it was much tougher to talk to the French about the gospel Wow. Whereas the Muslim, because they are growing up with a worldview where they already have a respect and reverence for God. Most of them do.
Some are very secular, and they’re still searching themselves. But for the most part, they do. And so if you find those commonalities, and then you can show them how it what it looks like just in everyday life, you know, whether you’re dating or married or you have new children or you’re, you know, looking for a new job and just what that looks like. They find it very attractive. And I guess my last point would be, really challenge yourself to see them with eyes of love.
I I feel like too often we look and I’m not I’m not sure about your audiences, but at least my generation, growing up in the eighties nineties, you know, oftentimes, evangelism was seen almost like a project. You have to convince someone. We we appeal to reason and logic, and I am finding more and more that it’s really, again, about a relationship. Just as we have a relationship with God, we need to have a relationship with one another. And as I pursue love in my relationship with Muslims, I find that’s where I’m transformed, and then they are transformed.
And, so, yes, we need to understand theology and scriptures and, you know, their worldview, but but, ultimately, it’s the relationship that will point them to Christ. Yeah. This is becoming a theme, I think, with a few of the people that we’ve we’ve interviewed. I’m thinking, last week, we had, Matthew Stone on and he he was mentioning that, you know, apologetics can be really good, especially for the Christian to understand their own faith. But ultimately Yeah.
You’re not gonna find where Jesus kinda sits a person down and says you need to understand these 3 propositional truth statements about me. It’s more of a follow me relational model of evangelism and his his mindset was we’re to present ourselves and present Christ through us to people and to do it in that relational context. So it’s really it’s interesting that you’re kinda hitting on that same theme. Yeah. Very much so.
And, you know, Muslims are trained from early childhood to to basically debate any other worldview or Christianity. Right. So we don’t wanna start there. We don’t wanna start there. We wanna just start with sharing our lives and as those questions naturally surface, then, of course, we need to address them.
And and you said you mentioned that, the Muslims that you’ve met and known, feel things very, very deeply. Right? And so I think some of the things that, that we’re talking about here is maybe engaging the heart over the mind at at at at a certain level. Right? Because their minds have maybe been engaged with what they’ve been taught, as children, But when you engage the heart, it’s like a whole different element with, with them seeing how we love Christ and we live for Christ and we follow Christ and it’s not an obligation.
It’s really relational and Yeah. Yeah. So maybe it it seems, like it’s engaging a totally different aspect of of, of the person. So yeah. That’s really I agree.
And I’ve been told that. I’ve been told that, you know, Westerners from a from an Iranian Muslim, he’ll tell you Westerners approach life often with their head, and then a Muslim, you know, will approach life first from their heart and passion and conviction. And then, of course, you know, they use reason and logic. Right. But they start with with their kind of debt, I guess, or their heart.
Right. And and And so that’s even make their connect mhmm. That’s even that common ground, that we have if if we’re, these passionate Christians that really love the lord, have relationship with the lord. It it maybe hits common ground with these with these Muslims that, are very passionate, you know. So Yeah.
I think I think often they’re looking for for people of faith and they can share some commonality with someone that’s has a deep adoration for God and in Christ. And, Shireen, would you say that that’s, a starting point is just maybe talking about your own, love for God and and seeing where a Muslim is at and seeing where where they’re at with their own relationship with God? Challenges, and pain. Mhmm. But just very family volunteering, challenges and pain.
Mhmm. But just very family volunteering how you work through your challenges and pain and whether it’s going to God’s prayer or spending quiet time and praying and writing and reading and journaling and, you know, seeking advice from trusted people. Yeah. Just sharing your journey and then just kind of guiding that conversation gently and then ultimately to Christ. So how how is prayer, been received by your Muslim friends when you offer to pray with them?
I’m assuming pray with them for the things that they’re struggling with. Well, I found again, it’s if you have a relationship and it can happen very quickly in a matter of even just days, but if you’ve established a relationship and you have the privilege of, you know, entertaining them and and and get revealing your life and sharing and hearing from them. Then as you listen and the spirit moves you, then you can just offer to pray for different things. And I just just say, hey. You know?
Before we leave today, can I pray for you? And we’ll find a quiet place and, and pray for them. So, it’s not that different than how you would live your life with, your Christian friends. Good. So you’re saying so they they don’t they don’t mind?
No. It’s an act of love. It’s such an infinite, vulnerable, place to go with a friend. Not at all. Not at all.
See, I’ve only found it to be very positive. Now you have to earn that trust. And like I said, it can take a little bit of time. But, you know, if you find yourself in a situation, let’s say, someone’s a a student on a campus and they’re living on a dorm floor with someone or they have a neighbor across the street and they begin sharing about their lives and then that person, Mohammed or Leila or whoever, begins to reveal something difficult, then, yes, you can stop right then and say, you know, before we end our time or before I leave, can I just pray with you for a few minutes for this this concern? I think that’s a great point.
Like, I don’t know. That’s kind of a mark. Even in our relation western relationships would be if someone starts sharing their heart with you, you know, like, I think a Christian would automatically think, well, let’s go to prayer. So if a Muslim comes and you have that relationship and they’re sharing something, you know, that’s that’s deep or or or painful, that that’s a mark of trust. And yeah.
I mean, I think that’d be a great, you know, kind of a sign that, you know, yeah. Let’s let’s let’s let’s bring the Lord into this and and talk and and have prayer. So that’s that’s cool. Yeah. I think it’s hard for us sometimes to understand necessarily feel comfortable going there in prayer because we don’t wanna offend.
But it sounds like you’re saying that that Muslims, that’s the correct place to go. I think it’s very saying that that Muslims, that’s the correct place to go. I think it’s very possible. And, you know, more and more, a lot of the younger Muslims are very secular. So we have to, you know, again, assess the situation.
Right. And I’m you do that through body language. You look at their eyes. You look at their posture. You know, are they leaning in?
Are they leaning away from you? You know, you if you listen to their tone or their voice. And as you you assess these things and you feel like, you know, we’re at a comfortable place, then, yeah, you can definitely share your life and and and offer to pray or go deeper in your conversation. It’s it’s not something really difficult to do. It’s just really, you know, looking at that person saying, how can I serve them?
How can I, you know, be where they are rather than trying to have an agenda and take them to a place that we want them to go? Right. It’s out of Really thinking about that. Deep concern. Them.
Right. It’s like you really do want them to meet Christ, not just because you want a a notch on your belt because but you love them and your your heart’s breaking for them and yeah. I I I see what you’re saying. That’s great. Yeah.
I think Yeah. I think I read something recently from Carl Mandara saying something along those lines about reaching out in love and loving another person not just so that you can get a notch on your belt. Whether or not they respond or not doesn’t change the fact that we are to reach out in love. And genuinely loving somebody means sitting down with them and and joining them in their pain and and their life and their struggles and praying with them and just hoping that the Holy Spirit works in their lives. And I think it takes a lot of pressure off of us.
So I I find it really encouraging, Shereen, what you’re sharing. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I’m blessed to to talk with you.
And, yeah, it’s a privilege. It’s a privilege. And I find that actually reaching out to Muslims helps me to be more confident in reaching out to other people. You know? It’s like when you can overcome those fears and those barriers, you you realize that people are people, and Right.
They all need to be loved. We need to handle everyone carefully, and the the goal is really to honor the Lord and just be the best example we can be in loving others. Right. And that’s that’s kinda what our show is about. Like, we really wanna help Christians, in America that are hearing our podcast to really, like maybe, I mean, maybe they’re on the fence.
Maybe they’re like, yeah. I know I should, but they don’t have the heart for Muslims, and they they don’t they don’t see them as real people. Maybe they’re just buying into everything the media is saying. And we’re trying to get them off the fence and saying, no. No.
No. No. Christ is bigger than that. Christ is bigger than our nationality. Christ is bigger than than our, political stances, you know, our prejudices, and that that we have a responsibility as Christians to go beyond that.
And we try to portray that on the show, and sometimes it’s easy. Sometimes, you know, we’re just hoping for the best, you know, and yeah. Last thing, could you tell us a little bit about the Visual Story Network and what you and your husband are doing with that? Yes. Yes.
So we were actually serving with the Jesus Film Project 7 years in Southern California and, my husband was asked to take this new initiative which was, helping multiple ministries and churches learn how to use media more effectively for the gospel for them. And so he created this network where, literally hundreds of ministries and leaders collaborate on projects to use media more effectively. So whether it’s through the big screen or through, using your your your mobile phone, you know, how you create content for your phone. Right. And they use it for storytelling, film, documentaries, messaging, branding, whatever.
And so, we assist agencies in in developing media and getting them the training or we have a network of producers and directors, you know, to create content. That’s so amazing that you’re able to use technology to to further the gospel and and teaching other people how to do it. Yeah. We yeah. We love it.
We just did a story shop in LA 2 weeks ago with 48 different mission agencies and churches, and we taught them story structure content, and, you know, how to use story properly to share your message. That’s so cool. Yeah. I’m I’m excited about the idea of collaboration. It’s so hard these days to get people to collaborate on things, and it’s just neat that you have so many different mission agencies working together on this.
Yes. Yes. Exactly. And raising the bar, you know, really trying to improve our craft. And we really appreciate you, joining us today and and and taking time out of your busy schedule.
So thanks so much. And, we look forward to to doing this again and and getting to hear more about what the Lord is doing in your life and how he’s working through you, to share the love of Christ with Muslims. So hopefully, in the future, we can call on you and get you back on the show and we’ll be sure to offer, listener feedback to you as we get it. Very good. Thank you.
God bless you both. Have a great day. Alright. So that was the interview with Shareen Taber. Now that we’ve, we’ve settled the bet on how to pronounce, Shireen’s name.
It’s neither Shirin or Shirin. And it’s funny that she actually mentioned Shirin because I was like, oh, I’m really wrong. Well, I I spoke to her once on the on the phone earlier, and I think I did call her Shireen. I I bet she’s just been called that for so long. She probably just doesn’t correct people anymore and tells them the right the right name.
But Shereen does sound much nicer, I think. I thought I thought Shereen’s my last name’s Ki, but everyone calls me Kai because it’s spelled k I. Yeah. Kai. So I don’t I don’t even say anything.
But if they call me Harold, I’ll I’ll kind of call him out. I get called Kevin all the time. Honestly, I have no idea why. I think it’s because Trevor and there’s a, you know, the v sound in the middle of the name, and it’s just they remember Kevin or Travis. Anytime I think of Kevin Kevin, I think of the guy in the office.
Anyway, man, I really appreciate, Shareen’s perspective, though. I think she brought a perspective that, we haven’t heard from any of our other I was just interviewees. I was just thinking, like, it just felt different than some of these other guys that we’ve interviewed. Not that they’re any better. It’s just kind of a different feel.
I felt like it was, you know, extremely relational, very much more like, where other people just listening to this podcast, you listeners, listening to this podcast could just hear and access kind of her heart and what she was saying and how to how to live her, how to live your faith out in real tangible simple ways, and make a make a huge impact. I thought it was really cool. Yeah. The idea of being authentic and just, I don’t know. I was looking for, like, a magic recipe or something.
But when she started to break it down, it was basically saying, just live your life with people. Right. And that’s, actually more challenging than it sounds because everybody’s so busy. But I think that’s what she’s saying is we have to actually take Muslims to the DMV, help them get their license, go with them to the school and meet with the guidance counselor and do just the practical daily things that, they need help with. Right.
And and I think that has to be a conscious decision on on each of us because I know for myself, I have 5 kids. I’m, you know, I have I have ministry and then I do this part time. I’m busy, crazy, wanna hang out with my friends, have downtime. I I’m not thinking about my neighbor and living life with them so much, And it just has to be kinda like this conscious decision. And, you know, just to say, Trevor, I think you and your family do an amazing job at this, with the the Muslims next door.
Yeah. I actually do have Muslims in my neighborhood, and we see them. They come over all the time. It’s true. You know, we love them.
And they’ve even, did he invite you to kill a goat? Yeah. I’ve actually I’ve been part of more animal sacrifices than nuts. Nuts sacrifices. But yeah.
No. I know. It wasn’t a goat. It was a cow. I was, this is no joke.
It was about 5:30 in the morning and I got a phone call and it was my neighbor saying, hey, what are you doing today? I said, I’m going to work. And, he said, any any chance you can get the day off? And I thought, why? And I’m trying I’m thinking something’s wrong.
You know? It’s so early in the morning. And, he said, well, we, we bought a cow, and we want you to come with us. We bought a cat. Oh, and I was like, wait a second.
We’re gonna kill a cow? And they were like, yeah. And I thought, well, I think I could get off work for that. That’s kinda cool. And, so we we went and, well, actually, when they were talking about how we’re gonna kill it, I said, well, what do you need me to do?
And they said, we need you we need help getting it down because, you know, in in Islam, you have to bring the cow down to the ground before you can, you know, you have to actually slice the throat. There’s no shooting it. You have to you have to cut the throat and bleed it out for the Eid sacrifice, which we’ll talk about Eid sacrifice on another show. Many of you guys are wondering, what is the Eid sacrifice? Well, it actually has to do with with Abraham.
So anyway, we’ll talk about that another time. But this was an Eid sacrifice that was special because I had never sacrificed an animal that big. And so Yeah. That’s a big animal. Yeah.
So you can imagine, I show up, there’s 3 of us, and they’re like, here, you hold the chain. So I have this cow held, by a chain and I have it on video. We should put that in the show notes. No. I haven’t even seen this video.
Yeah. It it’s not. You know? I’ll preface it by saying it’s not for everybody. You know?
Right. Because you are killing a cow. Yes. Oh, and just to kinda give you listeners just to kinda some warning. We, Trevor and I are both hunters, but we hunt to feed our family, not just for we don’t like to kill things.
No. I love animals. Yeah. It’s not like that. You know?
So for so many of you guys are outraged. Don’t don’t think that way. We’re Trevor’s not excited about going to kill a cow just to kill a cow, but it’s an interesting experience. And to do this with his neighbors with Muslim neighbors is And I had never killed a cow. So I was kinda interested in just what would that process look like.
And are we gonna wrestle this thing down, hold it down? And, so I’m Cow tipping to a next level. Yeah. I was ready. But anyway, we got out there and a couple other guys showed up and the cow was incredibly cooperative.
You know, he didn’t know it was coming. I was like, what does that mean? He just, like, laid down for you? No. I mean, there’s still a technique, you know, if you’ve ever, like, wrestled a dog and you try to get him down, you take the one leg and pull it and then it falls.
I don’t know. Somebody’s maybe deeply offended right now at the idea of taking down a cow. That’s exactly what I’m thinking right now. Yeah. Someone’s offended.
But anyway, don’t be offended. This was all part of, you know, at some point, there was a conversation about Abraham and the sacrifice and, what was, God ransoming Abraham’s child from by providing a a sacrificial, substitutionary lamb, essentially. That’s what they’re remembering, which is directly related to the gospel. That helps me. Nonetheless, if you wanna see the video, we’ll put it in the show notes.
It was, it was an interesting experience, especially for the, rural farmer who probably had never met a Muslim up until this point in his life and suddenly But seldom a cow. Suddenly there are a dozen guys, a dozen dudes all dressed in full on, you know, celebratory garb and we all show up ready to wrestle a cow down and and cut its throat. And, he watched the whole thing. I mean, he was fascinated. So, anyway, it was a cultural experience for him, I’m sure.
Okay. And here’s another thing. Every time Trevor talks, I’m always thinking about something. Oh, this needs to be said. This needs to be said.
Because Trevor Chanigan just goes at it. Okay. So this means if you have a friend, neighbor next door that is a Muslim, it doesn’t mean that you’re gonna have to sell, slaughter a cow with him. Okay? But it does mean you might have the opportunity to slaughter.
There you go again. Okay. Listen. It doesn’t mean that. It it just means that you’re gonna live life together.
You’re gonna help them in encouragement. They’re gonna be an encouragement to you. Right? Aren’t your Muslim neighbors an encouragement to you? Absolutely.
I, you know, Shireen was talking about this in the interview that that there’s a certain aspect of the culture that she’s teaching her own children. My own children, I believe are going to be fuller, more rich culturally, humans because of their experience with these these Pakistani neighbors that I have. I mean, they they have known them since they were, you know, my youngest daughter was only a year old. And so I’ve known them for the last 4 or 5 years and we engage with them all the time and have great conversations about the world, about religion, about all kinds of things about Jesus. And, my daughter regularly will pray for them.
We pray for them as a family. We break bread with them, and our greatest hope is that they might one day know Jesus as savior. And something I noticed about mister Khan is that he knows that Trevor is is very, very different. He’s he doesn’t just kinda compartmentalize him as as someone that’s like the, you know, the general populace, kind of like what, Shereen was saying about Pamela. She knew that Pamela was different.
Uh-huh. And it was it’s really neat to hear mister Khan’s perspective on Trevor. He’s just like, man, anything that if you’re a friend of Trevor, I do anything for Trevor. That means I’ll do anything for you. And I’m just like, man, what kind of impact has Trevor had on this guy’s life just by living life together with this guy Yeah.
And his family. So it’s it’s it’s pretty neat. Yeah. I think Shereen really was bringing that that home, that idea of being authentic, living life with Muslims, and it was a it was a good challenge. I don’t know.
I we we don’t like to generalize, particularly on this show. But I’m almost wondering, is is maybe part of this the fact that that Shereen is a woman and women are typically more relational? I was just really challenged by her her views to be, man, we have to be more relational with Muslims. And so many times, I find people wanting to win an argument or make a point and Shereen and my wife is this way. She’s much more along the lines of just you just get to know people.
Right. And so, I don’t know. Maybe I’m, you know, off base there, but I was just really inspired by that. I I think you’re right. I mean, I I don’t think people are a checklist or a to do list.
Right? I think people, you know, it’s not like, okay. I need to go through, evangelism with them and and get them to pray the sinner’s prayer. It’s not even really liked at the beginning. Like, I think as a a relational approach, it’s more like, you know, I’m really gonna love them, have compassion for them.
I’m gonna pray for them, and and as opportunities arrive, I’m gonna, arise. I’m gonna take those opportunities. But knowing that God is gonna do this, you know, in in this person and not us not just take them through this this program, turn him out like a factory. Mhmm. Because I think sometimes we have that kind of mentality.
Still, I think we’re far farther away from that than we used to be as a church, in America, but I think that sometimes kinda comes up. I’m still stuck on just girls are more relational than guys. Right. You go to a party with your wife and, like, 5 minutes there, you know, they’re they’re talking about life issues and guys are still talking about football and that’s the depth of the conversation. Right.
You guys are like, I’m I’m let’s go home, honey. So anyway, yeah, I was encouraged. I really appreciated her views on culture, on looking at, the Iranian revolution, and just being able to connect with how a lot of Muslims probably feel today when they feel very stereotyped. They feel very alone, isolated. Just, the world is looking at them through a lens that probably doesn’t feel very good.
And so we have to we have to bring a different, answer like Pamela did for her. Right. Please check out Shareen’s book, The Muslim, Muslims Next Door. Next Door. Yeah.
And like you said, Amazon’s a great easy place to pick it up, and it’s on, Kindle. Yeah. We’ll we’ll add it in the show notes as well and put a link there. I got the book this morning. I got the eversion and, was just flipping through it, and it had some very good stuff and Yeah.
Very helpful. Very easy, enjoyable to read, and yeah. So, anyway, so that’s it for this week. Thank you so much for joining us. Join us next week.
We have another special guest. Yeah. We’re actually, next week, gonna be talking about the text, the Quran. And we’re gonna have a, what I would consider to be one of the foremost experts on the Quran, doctor Peter Riddell. And he’s gonna join us and discuss, the text and kinda look at it from a perspective of how can 2 people read the same text and come up with radically different views.
So, those of you that are more, the textual folks, be sure to tune in next week. So, thanks so much for listening. Check out the website truthaboutmuslims.com, and be sure to spread the word. We’ll see you next week
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Here starts the auto-generated transcription of Muslims, Mission and Martyrdom with Dr. Jerry Rankin:
These is not irrelevant. It is a warning. Welcome to the Truth About Muslims podcast, the official podcast of the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media. Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. This week’s sponsor, as always, CIU, Columbia International University equips students with a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.
And Zwemer Center. Zwemer Center equips the church to reach out to Muslims with understanding, and the Zwemer Center has been around since 1979. So they notice themselves. Yeah. They know what they’re talking about.
Zwemer Center is, zwemer.com. That’s z w e m e r. I had I had to spell it because people were asking. Right. Yeah.
And ciu.edu. Alright. Welcome to the truth about Muslims, episode 9. With doctor Jerry Rankin, the executive director of the Zwemer Center For Muslim Studies. Yep.
He actually came into our studio and recorded with us, and, we had a great time. It was kinda funny though when, you know, we said studio, but it’s, you know Trevor’s. Attic. Yeah. Well, it it’s nice.
It looks nice. It sounds good. Hey, actually, let’s put in our shout outs that we need to post a picture. Yeah. No.
Yeah. Good idea. Get a picture get a picture of Rankin, buy the mic. No. No.
No. I do have that picture. I took that picture. Yeah. But I I thought we were recording this intro as though it was before the the interview.
Alright. That’s cool. Yeah, man. We should do that. Anyhoo, yeah.
We’ll put a picture of the attic so you guys can see the, the glory of the It studio. It I mean, even though I haven’t taken the picture, so so we say. But, like, it it does look really cool. But, anyway, okay. So the the title of this this week’s podcast is Muslims, Mission, and Martyrdom.
And it is, a real privilege to have Rankin in the studio because, 40 years with the IMB. In the last 17 years, he served as president. And so I don’t know about you, but I I can’t imagine 40 years with with one organization and then also 17 of those years in such a high position of leadership. Right. And then, of course, if you know anything about the international mission board, they are an extremely well run and, effective, I don’t know, arm and missions and and a blessing.
No. I remember when we were in YWAM. Right? We we did look up to the IMB. We were Well, first of all, because they paid their mission interest.
Right. We were always like, man, those guys are living large. We always used to joke like, how do we, how do we get on staff at the IMB? Right. I used to get a paycheck.
Because we were, like, eating potatoes, like, every day. That’s all we had. Yeah. That was awesome. Good times.
And they and, you know, they produced, good material, church planting movements with Garrison. Right. I remember studying that book before I even knew who Garrison was. Yeah. It was kinda weird.
Yep. And so, also, 23 of those, 40 years were spent on the field working in Asia, particularly in Indonesia, which is the largest Muslim country in the world. So wealth of knowledge from, from doctor Rankin. Right. And I actually been to Indonesia for a few weeks, and it was, it was it was a pretty it was a really neat experience.
And so it’s kinda cool to to hear that Rankin went to, to Indonesia and serve there. Wasn’t Indonesia the place where, you took that ferry ride? Yeah. Right. Is that right?
Right. We went from the I don’t know why we thought this was a good idea. I remember this story. But we took this we took this decided to take this ferry ride from us, from one city to the next and because we were just exploring. We didn’t really even have a plan.
This is Wait a minute. You mean YWAM didn’t have a plan? Right. Right. Right.
We just kinda went with the wind. We were just hoping that wind was the holy spirit. But, anyway, so we it worked for Paul. Right. And we got on this ferry, and it was like a double decker ferry.
And we we got on top of the roof. We thought we were smart because everybody else is packed into to the main cabin. And it was kinda crazy because it was so cramped. There was hundreds of people in this ferry, and I’m just thinking this is a bad idea. So we sat on the roof.
But in the middle of the night, there was a tropical storm. Usually, if the locals are doing something and you think, hey. Right. They haven’t thought about this. Why aren’t they sitting on top?
There’s probably a reason. Right. Because, you know, like, you’ll see, like, in India people riding on top of buses Yeah. I’ve done that. On top of the bus or on top of the train.
I thought I would defy the laws of gravity by riding on top. If it went off the side, I could just jump at the last second and survive. Yep. That was actually my strategy. Yeah.
Well, if you if you if you known Trevor as long as I have, you know that he’s telling the truth. No. I’m serious. I know. That’s what I’m saying.
I did it in Nepal too. But anyway okay. Anyway but the point is that, tropical storm hit, and it was nuts. It was, like, crazy, just, like, flooding and waves, and all of us were trying to get jammed in there. And, basically, it was a long ferry ride.
It took us all throughout the night. I think the next morning, we, actually, we didn’t really sleep. But the next morning as the sun was rising, we started to kinda get into calm waters and, and and and pull into shore, but it was, like, the worst night of my life and and and terrifying at the same time. But, yeah. Yep.
You know what though? Those are those those provide good stories. Right. There’s there’s some other stories in in that in the midst of that trip that I’d like to say, but I’m not so sure if our listenership wants to hear it. No.
I’m I’m thinking of that that night even here in Colombia when we went fishing and the battery on my boat died, we were about 4 4 miles from the dock, and everybody’s like, what are we gonna do? And I’m like, I’d have a good story. Yeah. And And we paddled all the way back 4 miles. No.
No. No. No. You say paddle, but the the listeners are thinking of a a proper paddle. This was not a proper paddle.
This was one of those emergency you can store. You can you can break down into little a little paddle. I mean, it wasn’t very much. We had to lean over the bow of the boat and paddle, like, back achingly for hour like, 2 hours, I think, we had to paddle. I think it was more like 3.
It was about 2 AM by the time we got back to the dock. But, nevertheless, I had a paddle, which I think everybody was pleasantly surprised by. Right. There was this one time that I was fishing with a really good friend of Trevor and me, And, we got stuck in low tide in the intercoastal. And so he had this great idea of using the anchor.
No. We were both there for that. I remember this. Yes. So he would fling the anchor out into the mud and it would stick and then he pull us Yeah.
Towards the the anchor and then do it again. But he at one point, he had, you know, overcompensated and flew off the edge of the boat. Forgot to let go of the rope. He went and threw it and was still holding on with the rope with the other hand, and it flung him out of the boat into the water. Right.
It was freezing cold. And it wasn’t much water. And it was a bunch of mud. And, praise God he didn’t get cut up on those oyster shells. They get they’re they get they’re they’re like razor blades.
Yeah. I’m I’m just saying boat stories. You know, at first, it seems tragic, but then you’re like, hey, this is gonna be a good story. This is aside from the point, but we need to go fishing. Yeah.
No doubt. No doubt about that. Anyhoo, Jerry Rankin. Oh, Jerry Rankin. Hey, Jerry.
Yeah. So here we go. Let’s, let’s go ahead and get to the interview with Jerry Rankin. Alright. Okay.
We have a guest in the studio today, doctor Jerry Rankin. Jerry, it’s so great that you’re with us today. Thank you, Trevor. It’s great to share with you. Topic for today is gonna be Muslims’ mission and martyrdom.
And so we’re hoping, Jerry, I know you’ve had a a wealth of experience, working all around the globe and with all different religious people groups, but Muslims in particular. Even your early career was started in, the largest Muslim country in the world. Correct? Well, it was. We spent, quite a number of years in Indonesia, which has the largest population of any Muslim country in the world.
But contrary to the understanding and perception of many people, later, I served as area director for South and Southeast Asia with our International Mission Board work. And the 4 largest countries, with Muslim population are in that part of the world, in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and, India. And so there’s a vast diversity in in Islam. And what we see happening in one area of the world, particularly in the Middle East, is not necessarily relevant and applicable to the cultural upheaval and things that are happening in other areas. Yeah.
We talk a lot about the media on our show. And it just seems like, as far as the Muslim population goes, the it’s always the Middle East. And so it’s interesting that you kinda come with this different perspective. A very important component in studying and understanding Islam is to recognize the diversity of all the different sects and segments. In fact, even in our media, we see the, the conflicts between Shiite and Sunnis.
It’s hard to understand. It’s so violent and committed to the destruction of others that they consider heretics. And that’s not against outsiders. That’s within Islam. And so, we can’t see it as a monolithic religious system.
I think we were talking earlier before the show, Jerry, when you were mentioning, you know, kinda in the his in a in a historical context, you kinda mentioned that you see Islam as being, you know, one of the last great barriers to accomplishing the great commission. Could you elaborate a little bit on that? Well, it has been an awesome experience serving as president of the International Mission Board and having personnel serving in about a 190 countries among people groups all over the world to get a global overview of how God is at work. And when, the Soviet Union disintegrated after the Berlin Wall fell and began to disintegrate, we, you know, missionaries, volunteers flooded into an area of the world that had been prohibited of religious freedom for generations. We’ve witnessed an unprecedented harvest emerging in China that is just absolutely phenomenal considering it’s still a repressive culture that persecutes and forbids Christianity and yet something is feeding the growth there.
But when all of this has begun to happen as we move into the 21st century, we recognize the the remaining formidable barrier to global evangelization was the the Muslim world across Northern Africa, Middle East and Central Asia and, just the areas that have been subjugated over the centuries by Islam. And it’s amazing. We can’t fully grasp or understand. But even after 9:11, beginning of 21st century, people were reflecting that our world has changed never to be the same again. And part of that change is to just open areas in the Muslim world to an openness, to the gospel.
Our personnel said friends, neighbors all across this part of the world were asking questions that reflected a search for hope and security that their religious traditions no longer provided for them. And so we’re seeing an unprecedented harvest, I think, reflected in what we’ve known recently is the Arab Spring, just a social upheaval, you know, from the repressive regimes that, have been known. And it stings it’s still volatile. We don’t know where it’s going to play out, but we just sense that God is breaking that last formidable barrier and opening this world to the gospel. Gospel.
Well, when we think about it in the context of, say, the Soviet Union, for example, you mentioned the this the dismantling of the Soviet Union really opened the doors to the gospel. I would assume that before the Berlin, Wall fell, the gospel. I would assume that before the Berlin, wall fell, that people saw that as an impossible task, that there would ever be movements to Christ in these areas that are now the former Soviet Union. Have we seen much happen in that in that in those areas? And should we have hope from what we’ve seen historically through the fall of the Soviet Union in light of what’s happening today?
Oh, yes. I I was a part of, a global strategy and long range planning beyond the 20th century. And we were doing some very significant contingency plans, but never did they even include the possibility of people on the ground in these countries. And what I see happening in the world, I’ve just gained an awesome sense of God’s providence that we aren’t making it happen through Western diplomacy or through our mission strategies. God’s moving in power and providence as sovereign over the nations, in creating the upheaval that is providing an open door that’s unprecedented for the gospel to be made known.
Yeah. In the last few weeks, we’ve had, doctor Dave Cashin kinda come in and share what happened with the Iranian revolution and Mhmm. How that opened people’s hearts to the gospel. And then, of course, last week with, doctor Matthew Stone, kinda saying the same things. It’s it’s really interesting to see how, even with terrorism like ISIS is causing Muslims to kinda rethink what they believe, and is it really at the heart of Islam?
They’re they’re really actually, bringing these things to question. So the things that you’re saying seem to resonate with what our others other interviewees are saying. It’s pretty neat. Well, in past years, I I heard a number of people say that 2 people that God used probably more than anyone to open to the gospel was Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran and Saddam Hussein. That’s really funny because doctor Dave Kachen, he said Khomeini and, what was the other one, Howard?
Mao Zedong. And he said, 2 best church proto evangelist out there. So now we got Saddam Hussein on the list as well. But elaborate. But it’s like the scripture said, God said, pharaoh is my servant.
I mean, he was a pagan king, but he was just a puppet being used for God’s plan and in his providence through his people, Israel. And so, they’re revealing the heart of Islam and is creating disillusionment among massive population groups Mhmm. That are now searching for truth. Just just one illustration in talking to a secret believer, a university student in Afghanistan made the comment, I believe a third of the students at the University of Kabul are secretly reading and studying the Bible, looking for truth because they’re so disillusioned with what their traditional religion represents by the Taliban and what they’ve experienced there. You know, that that’s amazing because when we think of what we see in the media, regarding Kabul, Afghanistan, it’s so discouraging and it seems so hopeless, but it seems that as God has done historically, he is using the wrath of man to praise him.
Well, Haggai 2/22 says, God will shake the heavens and earth, overthrow the thrones of kingdoms, and destroy the powers of nations. We need to look beyond the headlines and what is obvious and see God moving to fulfill his mission. And just the global chaos, the war, the ethnic violence, natural disasters, economic uncertainty. God is using that to turn the hearts of people to look for truth that can be found only in Jesus Christ. Yeah.
I think that’s a perspective that we need to continually be reminding ourselves of because if we’re only kind of accepting our theological, you know, cues from what we see on television or maybe what we read in a newspaper. We can just find ourselves in despair and feeling like, is God at work? Right. We’re losing. That’s what it looks like on the media.
Well, to the contrary, we are seeing progress as that is unprecedented across the Muslim world. And, a lot of this is not publicized and cannot be really, communicated openly. But those of us who’ve been on the part of mission leadership on the inside. It’s been documented by David Garrison’s book, A Wind is Blowing Through the House of Islam, that is documented over 70 movements to Christ, in the last 20 or 30 years. That’s amazing.
We have, we were hoping to get Garrison on the show coming up in March, to discuss that book. But, I I mean, it’s just so encouraging to see that there are movements because for so long, I think the church has been discouraged thinking nobody is is or that the Muslim world is resistant. But when we look at it in context, it’s like sending 1 missionary to a 1000000 people and then calling them resistant. And so you were pretty instrumental in in opening, at least from the Southern Baptist Convention’s eyes to the Muslim world and really kinda refocusing some emphasis there. Could you tell us kinda how the IMB has had an impact?
I mean, not specifics, I know, but an impact in reaching out to Muslims during your time as president. Well, there has been an evolution of of strategy that it is remarkable. When I went to the mission field, years ago, the basic approach was to follow response. Mhmm. You sought out pockets of responsiveness, and that’s where you concentrated your resources.
Missionaries would go to open fields where they could openly proclaim the gospel. Mhmm. And, you kinda shied away from where where there was resistance, where there was antagonism and response. And it’s kind of embarrassing now, but I think in each era of missions history, people did what they felt like was the right thing, and God used it. He laid foundations for further expansion as we evolved.
But it’s really been in the last, 15 or 20 years that there’s been a focus on unreached people groups. Why are there vast segments of the world that have yet to hear even the name of Jesus that have no Christian resources, no bible, no missionaries engaging them. Their reasons of that has happened, and we’re now recognizing those barriers and through strategic access and and, more innovative strategies are finding ways to access these people groups with the gospel. And that’s certainly been the challenge, in the Muslim world where they’re both, government restrictions, for for Christians Mhmm. In those countries.
Certainly, missionaries, stereotypical missionaries that would come in to proselytize and share the gospel is is perceived by the missionary role, as well as just religious hostility that’s created by the cultures there. The the dangers, the risk involved. And currently, God is just leading people who are willing to lay their lives on the line and take the risk and and use creative strategies to gain access. And the the critical the critical factor in, in global evangelization is gaining access through, an incarnational witness. You can actually be fairly restrained as far as public proclamation, But in living out the gospel, people can see a difference that Christ makes and, I I think that is what is happening in many parts of the world, to open new doors to the gospel.
I think you dropped a a couple of bombs in that that statement that you made. The first one, I just wanna reemphasize for our listeners’ sake. You say there are large populations that have never heard of the name Jesus Christ. In 1995, at a global consultation on world evangelization in Seoul, Korea, it was by the AD 2000 and Beyond Movement, researchers identified more than 2,000 ethnic, linguistic, cultural people groups that had not yet had access to the gospel. And I think what’s so amazing is that we we label them sometimes as resistant to the gospel, but you’re making the case that it’s not that they’re resisting it.
They don’t even have access. Governments might resist missionaries coming in, but the people themselves have never even heard the gospel and had a chance to resist it. Well, this revolutionized the focus of evangelical mission agencies. And when I retired 4 years ago, in 2,010, that number was down to only 41 remaining people groups with more than a1000000 population That’s amazing. That had not been engaged with the gospel.
Only about 300 with a 100000 population. So most of the unengaged unreached people groups were what we would call micro people groups, the smaller isolated people groups. But it’s phenomenal, the progress that is being made in getting the gospel to every tribe, people, and nation today. What’s amazing is that, Samuel Zweymer in 1911 says, in this 20th century, there should be no unoccupied fields. He’s talking about the unoccupied fields of the world being places where had never been.
And he was saying this over a 100 years ago and trying to open the eyes of the church to say, hey, guys. There shouldn’t be a place on earth where the gospel isn’t, and we’re starting to see the fruit of that sort of, prophetic call a 100 years ago being fulfilled today. Well, the world is changing in terms of communication. Just electronic media, Internet communication is kind of hard to barricade, any part of the world from exposure to the gospel now. But it’s an emerging world, even in many Muslim countries that are moving into the modern world and have vast needs just in terms of education, humanitarian needs, medical needs, business, consultation to become a a part of the global community.
And there are people, equipped to bring value added to their societies. And, should not Christians be a part of responding with their skills and the experience to provide these needs and in doing so, live amongst people allowing them to see the presence of Christ in their lives. That that was this this actually, the second bomb that I think you you dropped. Nice. Nice.
About the the creative communication. Is that kind of what you’re talking about? With the gaining access, I think. Right? The the creative access of finding ways that yeah.
These places are still closed to missionaries as as we know them, And you can understand that. And so are there other ways for those who are Christians to build relationships, you know, and to to live among these people. If I could just give, an illustration, one of our our workers who, I’ll not even identify the reason he was there, whether business or humanitarian or work or whatever. Just keep it vague. That, or where it was.
But it was a very, place fanatical Muslim country. And, after a couple of years, one of his workers came to him and said, I’ve been working for you for 2 years now, and your life is different. It’s different from anyone I’ve ever known, even the religious leaders in our community. I’ve never known anyone that was patient, kind, compassionate, as you. And I’ve been trying to figure it out, and I finally decided it’s probably because you’re a follower of Jesus.
Can you tell me how I can be a follower of Jesus and have that kind of life? Well, it’s a situation you could easily be entrapped into witnessing, but he’d known this guy. He felt like he was sincere. He took the risk, explained the claims of Christ, the plan of salvation, and the the young man was very receptive. But the worker shared with him, said, now, if you do this, if you pray to receive Christ and become a follower of Jesus, you know you’ll probably be killed.
In telling me this, he, explained that he had known 6 local believers that had all been martyred within 6 months of proclaiming faith in Christ. And the young men replied, I know, but this is the way and I must follow it. And so there’s something compelling about the gospel that lived out in the midst of people that do not know the hope, the love, the transformation that Christ can bring to a life that is is a magnet to draw people to Christ. And so a lot of our people around the world are discovering just their very presence can give them a credibility for for a witness. That’s that’s amazing.
Something that’s kind of, seems like a seems really, like, upfront in my mind is that we don’t we don’t hear these kind of things in news. We don’t actually hear this kind of stuff in our churches. What would you say, is the reason for that? Well, I think we tend to shy away from that. I think, it’s not necessarily that we preach a prosperity gospel, You know, we don’t live in a situation that, calls on us to lay down our life, for our faith.
That’s not gonna grow you a very big church if you start preaching like that. But, you know, there there’s something about, that gives an authenticity to our faith when you do have to suffer for it. And I suspect that our society is is rapidly moving in that direction where it may not cost us of our our life, but just our reputation, our credibility, the attitudes toward others, of what we have to do to make a stand for Christ. But if we’re going to reach the Muslim world, it is going to take people willing to to lay down their life, for Christ and take the risk, to be involved. Because it’s real among believers who are following him, overseas.
And we’ve seen, a pattern of of those who have if taken that risk and who have given their lives. And invariably, it results in, a tremendous, witness and in gathering for Christ. Well, I think it’s it’s unfortunate, but we’ve we’ve lost or maybe we have never had, I don’t know, a theology of suffering, here in the United States. Because when we think even of the persecuted church, oftentimes, we’re praying that they would be delivered from the persecution and and so on and so forth. And then when you hear from these pastors in in Nigeria or China and they’re saying, well, we’re not saying to pray for the persecution to stop necessarily.
We’re actually asking that we would endure through this because God is using it, and he’s growing his church through this persecution. And that’s just a perspective I don’t think that we we often have. Well, we look at the, particularly the Muslim world and other areas as well that are unreached with the gospel. And we see the barriers. We see the risk, the the dangers that are involved.
And we want to place the blame on those governments or religious hostility or cultures. Mhmm. But the real reason is our lack of willingness to take the risk, and pay the price of what it takes to get the gospel to them. John Piper once made this statement. There’s absolutely no place on the globe that you cannot go and openly proclaim Jesus Christ if you’re not concerned about ever coming back.
Yeah. I mean, it may cost you your life, but you can go and plant the gospel. Well, the I mentioned Samuel Zweymer from a 100 years ago saying that, there should be no unoccupied fields. And he goes on to say in this book, that the reason there are unoccupied fields is that the church lacks the conviction that it needs to be done. Because once we are dominated by a conviction that a thing must be done, we will stop at nothing until it’s accomplished.
So his point was we need to wake up. His issue wasn’t so much Islam. It was the biggest concern for him was a church that didn’t even have a conviction to reach out to Muslims. Exactly. The problem lies at the feet of the church and its lack of commitment and zeal for getting the gospel to others.
We’ve diminished, the conviction concerning lostness and the eternal destiny of those Mhmm. Who haven’t rejected Christ, but have just never had an opportunity to hear of his saving grace. And that responsibility has been given to us by our Lord. Now, this seems a little bit off topic, but I was just wondering, just as a as a pastor listening I’m a youth pastor, by the way. And, how do you get our churches how do I get my church to engage more, not just in, you know, the the missions to Mexico and the summer trip or or something like that, but, actually, to go towards, a Muslim people group or, to try to reach out in that in that type of way?
As a as a mission director, how how have you seen churches develop into a mission mindset church? Mhmm. Well, that’s a a interesting question because you don’t have to go overseas to to reach Muslim population groups. Mhmm. That’s true.
I live in a small college town, actually a Christian college in in the South. In the last 2 years, we’ve had a 130 students from Saudi Arabia enroll at that Christian college. Woah. Wait a second. I I I I asked You’re saying at a Christian at a Christian university.
Yes. So what’s the draw? Well, I I asked him. I said, now you could study anywhere in America. You you’re getting fully paid.
Yeah. Money is not an issue. Anywhere issue. Why would you come to a Christian college in a little little town in the South? His response was, my father is very conservative and he felt like this would be a good moral environment if I were going to study in America.
Never mind is Christian. You know, they recognize, okay, I’m going not going to be confronted with what they perceive is going on in all of the world in this carnality of American universities. So what an opportunity. Fortunately, I see the churches rallying to study Islam, to understand how to converse with these students, to identify with them, or opening their homes to to hospitality. But that’s not happening among churches by and large, around the country.
We have a paranoia when we see people from the Middle East and from the Muslim world. We we close our hearts and and homes to them. We don’t know how to relate to burger clad women, you know, that we see in the marketplace and fail to realize they’re people just like us. They have children. They have families.
They’re concerned for their education, for their needs. They’re longing for friendships. And how hard is it to to just be a friend to a foreigner living in our community? I’m reminded of the second chapter of Acts. Jesus, 40 days earlier, just told his disciples to go and make disciples of all nations.
And we read in in acts 2 verse 5 that there were devout people from every nation under heaven gathered in Jerusalem. And we know what happened on the day of Pentecost. They heard the gospel in their own language. What did they do? They went back to their places, taking the gospel with them.
It was like Jesus was saying through the holy spirit, this is what I was talking about. Don’t you get it? You know, you didn’t go, so I’m bringing them to you. And I think he’s must be saying that to the church today as well. You know?
Okay. If you’re not going, I’m bringing him to you. Now what you gonna do about it? Well, that’s the tragedy though because what I’ve seen is there is a large part of the church that is actually very discouraged by the immigrant community coming in. And they’re not responding in love.
They’re actually, you know, recoiling in fear when they see Muslims. And instead of, you know, celebrating and and the fact that through God’s providence, Muslims are coming here, a place where they can easily hear the gospel. The church is actually going in just the opposite direction. Well, if we truly believe the gospel and the great commission mandate, the lostness of those without Christ, that there was hope only in Jesus Christ, we would count it as a blessing and an opportunity. But I think this reflects an indictment on the church of why we have failed after 2 millennium of, planning the gospel in the Muslim world, and so many people yet to have access to it.
Well, it also brings up, you know, we talk about acts, 1 8 that they would be witnessed in as in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. And then we get to acts 8 one, and we see a great persecution break out among the church, and the church is scattered to the ends of the earth. And so so many times, I think, we have a plan about how God is going to accomplish, his mission or maybe just be all about us. And then sometimes God’s plan might mean difficulty for us. It might mean persecution for us.
It might mean even something as serious as as martyrdom. Well, we we have seen more, missionary personnel martyred, in the 21st century than certainly in our organization had had seen for probably the previous century put together. And, we have to be careful how we describe martyrdom. There are those who would say that any Christian that that dies due to hostility toward their faith is a martyr. And I think that’s that’s valid.
People living for Christ, firm in their conviction and their faith and dying for it is a martyr. But there’s another level of which people actually are killed because of their overt witness in seeking to take the gospel into, forbidden territories, where where there is hostility toward their message. In the, a year after 9 11 in 2,002, we had 3 of our missionaries in a Middle Eastern country working at our, mission hospital who were killed. And, later when the, murderer was, was got and indicted, he confessed that they were expressing such a compassion for patients that they were impressing them in a positive way toward their And he just determined we’ve got to get rid of this, influence that is, you know, coming into our our community. So they weren’t even being verbal?
Well, not ex not overtly, but people who who came to the hospital, who knew them in the community, knew why they were there. Why would they come from America to an isolated, remote place like that and minister to them? And personnel had been there for 35 years without seeing an open breakthrough of people coming to the gospel. But they knew why they were there. It was their faith.
It was, being a disciple of Jesus Christ. And they weren’t overt in overt in seeking to proselytize, but people had to assess and evaluate what this meant, the kind of people that they were. And when these 3 are hospital administrator, a surgeon, and a nurse were all murdered, it resulted in a tremendous influx to the gospel because people realize this one just a religion they chose to follow. It was something that they were not only living out in their life, but it was something worth dying for. People in the world want something like that, that is meaningful.
And in the next few years, we saw over 200 Muslim backgown believers baptized there after not seeing any results in 35 years. And so as Tertullian said, you know, the blood of the martyrs is the the foundation, the seed of the church. Mhmm. Yeah. And we’re we’re seeing that all over the world and not through just, missionary martyrs or westerners that die for their faith, but there are far more local martyrs that are bearing that same powerful testimony.
Well, that’s what I was gonna ask. I mean, you said in the last 35 years, we’ve we’ve seen, more martyrs than in the entire was it the century before? And I’m thinking about something I read. I believe it was in the international journal Frontier Missions Missions, basically saying that more Muslims have come to Christ in the last 35 years than the entire effort of missions combined. And so I’m thinking, is there a correlation?
And I think you answered the question with your, the Tertullian quote, between martyrdom mission and movements. Well, that’s true. And it’s it’s not just the testimony of missionary martyrs, but local martyrs who could easily recant their faith. I mean, when when you can become a Muslim, simply by quoting the shahadat, how easy it is to just quote the shahadat and deny your faith, and you live. Life returns to normal.
They can’t understand why Muslim background believer will not deny his faith. Why is there such powerful life changing conviction that they’re willing to die? And when they do die for their faith, it’s something that, that draws people to have to consider what they believed in and consider for themselves. Well, I think it challenges you in your own belief. Do I believe what I believe is strongly as that person?
So if you’re a Muslim or a Hindu or Buddhist or atheist and suddenly you see someone else laying down their life for their faith, it it would draw anybody into that place of what did they believe so strongly, and do I have that same belief? And if not, should I consider what they believe? Exactly. And and we need to realize as the gospel more and more penetrates, the Muslim world in in various locations, through whatever means God is using, whether electronic media, exposure to a a westerner who’s there and a creative access witness, or, through dreams or visions that open their heart to consider the claims of Christ or explore and try to find out who this person is and what he means. God is working in manifold ways to make himself known.
And out of his passion and his goal to be exalted among the nations and all peoples. But when talking about talking about persecution or even, martyrdom, a lot of people don’t realize it’s not official, government persecution and restrictions, quiet subtle ways among one’s own family and in community. Mhmm. Because most of these societies are communal families. They they decide things as a community.
It’s a shame and honor society where you don’t do something that will shame your family. And to become a Christian, everyone has lost face, and they have to do something about it. And so a lot of the, Muslim believers are actually killed by their own family to preserve the honor of who they are as as Muslims. And yet for them to be willing to die for their faith, has really contributed to the movements that we’re seeing to Christ in places all over the world. Well, there’s definitely the the sense that there’s accounting of the cost in in a way that I don’t know that I personally can understand just the amount that they’re willing to to take on in following Christ.
Well, it it’s it’s not only the willingness to count the cost, but I think of our diminishing the power of the gospel itself. It’s something we grow up with. It’s so easy to just intellectually embrace the the truth of we’re sinners, that Christ saved us, to place our belief in him. It there’s something different in in the Muslim world. I still just stand amazed how years ago in our initial experiences in Indonesia, why someone would respond to my witness and become a believer in Christ, knowing that they would be rejected by their family, they would lose their job, their life would be threatened, they’d be ostracized by their community.
What is it that would compel them to turn their back on their tradition, their religion, their society? There was no explanation except the power that indwells the truth of the gospel. And not everyone is going to respond, not everyone was saved, but God’s Spirit is at work in the hearts of people. He’s revealed himself through creation. He’s revealing himself through dreams and visions.
He’s revealing himself through incarnational witness of those who followed Christ. And we need to be, aware of how making the gospel known, the power that’s inherent in the message itself. Right. I it’s kind of interesting because I think most people would think when they think about martyrs, they would think about missionaries, western missionaries going overseas and getting martyred. But you’re kinda talking about these unsung heroes that have come to faith and still refuse to recant.
And I think you had mentioned before we had, we started recording, you’d mentioned how many more, of these unsung heroes are being martyred than our western missionaries. Oh, far more. All all across the Muslim world, as well as in in China and, India and other places. Do you do you think, Jerry, that this is gonna continue to be, the process in seeing the Muslim world come to know Christ? We’re gonna continue to see more and more suffering of the church.
I’m I’m almost wondering, is there a spiritual dynamic here? Because Christ seems to indicate that suffering isn’t something that might come but something that we should be prepared for and actually expect. And in your kind of studies of spiritual warfare, I know you have a book on that. Is there a spiritual component here with, the evil one and and the great commission? Well, this merits another discussion that is quite extensive.
But there’s no question of the the ultimate nature of resistance to the gospel, the battle for the nations is one of spiritual warfare. Satan is jealous for god’s glory. This was the essence of his his fall, to be exalted, like the his throne on high. And, Satan, you know, is is defined as the lord of the air, the principalities, the powers of darkness, dominions of darkness. What amazes me in in the temptations experience of Jesus when he showed him all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain, he said, if you’ll bow down and worship me, I’ll give you all the kingdoms of all the dominions, because it’s been handed over to me.
And what intrigues me is that, of course, Jesus did not succumb to that temptation, though he had come to claim the kingdoms of the world for the kingdom of God. But what intrigues me is he never contradicted the right of Satan to make that claim because the reality is wherever Christ is not known, the countries, the people groups, the dominions of the world are the dominions of Satan living in darkness. And he’s not going to just simply roll over and relinquish the kingdoms of the world to become the kingdoms of our Lord. So it’s a spiritual warfare. Yeah.
He’s involved in godless totalitarian governments that would prohibit a Christian witness and persecute, witnesses. He’s involved in hostile religious systems that keep people in darkness. He’s the one that creates the barriers that create the fears, you know, and our lack of conviction and willingness to go in obedience to where Christ has sent us. And so, victory is going to be won, And we need to step up and claim that victory and, be obedient to what Christ has told us to do. You know, I’m reminded of, I believe it’s numbers 14 when, they’re commanded to go into the land and they come back and they hear the report from the the spies in Joshua, Caleb, Moses and Aaron are just so discouraged because the people refused to go into the land.
We are grasshoppers in our own eyes and they have all of this plan to go back to Egypt. And when the glory of the lord descends, the question is how long how long will these people despise me? How long will they not, believe in me? They lack faith. They they don’t remember what the lord did in Egypt.
And the response basically is I’m gonna wipe them out and give them pestilence and raise Moses up in a new generation. And Moses pleads with the lord and actually gives, the Lord’s glory is kind of the, you know, what will the people in Egypt say. And the Lord relents from destroying the people, but they miss out on the inheritance of the land and an entire generation is bypassed. And when they do eventually go into the land, you see just this amazing blessing and that God could have given it to that other generation. And sometimes I look around at the church here in the west and I feel like, are we being bypassed for another generation?
Is it gonna be other parts of the world that carry the gospel to the Muslim world? It it is tragic that we are forfeiting the privilege and opportunity of being a part of what God is doing in our world today, to fulfill his mission. I do see God moving in a younger generation that I think has the passion to go to the ends of the earth, to take the risk, to lay their lives on the altar for the sake of of the kingdom of God. But I’m convinced that it will not be the western church and missionaries, but God is raising up his people in third world countries like India and China and in local communities among Muslim background believers that will be the ones that will eventually touch every nation, tribe, and language with the gospel and fulfill the great commission. And and we were talking earlier about some things that are happening.
I mean, I’m sure maybe some listeners are thinking, what does he mean dreams and visions? But the reality is Muslims are having dreams and visions of Christ, sometimes apart from any missionary witness such as in Algeria. And we were talking earlier and and looked it up to confirm it, that that Raymond Law was, stoned on the beaches of Algeria. And here we are, so many years later and wondering, is it possible that even through the suffering of Raymond Law who dies on the boat ride back, that the people could still be having an effect of the power of that willingness to lay down a life and dreams and visions are now coming. I don’t know.
There’s just some connection between the suffering of the church and then the later fulfillment of the great commission. Well, it it is strange to us, and we shouldn’t, presume that dreams and visions are enough to bring people to saving faith in Christ. But what it does, it creates an an, an inquisitiveness, a desire to know it breaks down the barriers that enables them to seek the truth and be open to even exploring the claims of God’s word. And I I’ve met so many, they had no idea until I began to share with them the gospel. I said, I think this has something to do with a dream I once had, and began to describe what was obviously an image of Christ speaking to his heart.
And, you know, and that’s what allowed his heart to be opened. Before, we started the interview, you were sharing a story. You just recently returned from India from 3 weeks in India, and there was a a young man you encountered that kinda brought you back to, some early experiences with persecution. Could you could you share that story here? Well, years ago, I was training, church planters in India, and a young man who was a village evangelist was following up a witness in a village that was very fanatical, Hindu village.
And they, expressed their antagonism, forbid him to come back, and, made it clear that he wasn’t welcome, threatened his life. But he kept going back. And, eventually a group of thugs attacked him on the the road into the village, beat him with clubs and chains. And I happened to get in India, and he was in the hospital bandaged in traction, just really severely injured. And I asked him after what had happened to him, was he willing to continue his ministry and to go to the villages?
And he just smiled and said that he was just amazed that he was doing anything worthy of suffering for his Lord and said, I look forward to continuing to share the gospel in places like this. Well, he went back to that village after he was healed, and they were so astounded that he would come back after being beaten that they realized that he had such a compelling message that they must hear it and needed to hear what he had to say. Well, eventually, the village was reached. The church was started. I was back there this year visiting with a group of local pastors.
This pastor was there, now retired, is older. His son was one of the church planners I was meeting with, and we were fellowshipping, had a reunion after 15 years. And he said, do you remember that village where I got beaten and a church was eventually started? I said, yes. He pointed to a young man across the room.
You see that tall young man? He is the the pastor of that church. And then he said and he was one of the young men that beat me that day. See, I don’t think we hear stories enough. I mean, for me, like, it just makes me really excited about what God is doing, fills me with faith and hope to to actually go and do the things that, I think God has called us to do.
But I don’t know. In this day and age, you would think with all of the technology, we would be able to have testimonies just pouring in, throughout the church to to get us all excited to to go do what God’s called us to do. Because I’m so reminded whenever you’re talking about these stories that God is with us. Yeah. God’s doing amazing things.
Yeah. Well, I’ve had the privilege of traveling this recent trip to India, but all across the the Middle East and Northern Africa, and especially into unprecedented pace. And it’s not without cost, both of, missionaries who go as well as national believers. But, god’s spirit is moving in unprecedented ways. Yeah.
I think we have to be more proactive about seeking out to find where god’s moving, and I think we would be more encouraged. And, Jerry, as we as we come to a close, could you just give us, maybe a word of encouragement for the church for people listening? How should we view what’s happening in the world today with Muslims? How should we, see, God’s hand moving? You’ve seen a lot of these places.
You’ve been to many of the Muslim countries of the world, if not all. What should we take away from this that would give us great hope in trusting God? Unfortunately, I I’m in a lot of churches. And I I would it it it’s very much a generalization. But our American churches are very self centered and ingrown.
It’s about us, our programs, meeting the needs of our families and our community and gathering and worship. We need to realize how privileged we are to be in a place that we’ve had an opportunity to hear the gospel and know Jesus Christ. And when we realize that, it will burden our hearts for people who do not have that opportunity. And we need to realize that most of the world is lost, not because they have rejected Jesus Christ or not because there’s no spiritual need in their own life that would lead them to embrace the gospel, but because they’ve never heard. And Of course, god is calling many more to go, that aren’t responding to the call, that aren’t offering him their lives, that aren’t willing to lay their life on the altar and pay the price to go, but will not be willing to go until we begin to pray and really take these people into our hearts.
And for the local church in America, it begins by becoming aware, being informed of the realities of a lost world. For praying earnestly, not for just the missionaries. Our churches pray for their missionaries, but praying for the peoples, the unreached people groups, the Muslims of the world Even the persecutors. Who’s praying for the Baluchi and the Mazaderani and the Quashkai and and Central Asia and South Central Asia and the Fulani and the Kanuri in West Africa, and the multitudes of people groups lifting them up to the throne of God and interceding. When we do, God will break down the barriers, and he’ll call out the laborers and the resources to reach them with the gospel.
Well, doctor Rankin, thank you so much for coming in. I know that, I’m really gonna be looking forward to the next, podcast that we record with you, about spiritual warfare. Yeah. I think we definitely gotta have you back and do spiritual warfare. And, it’s just been a blessing to hear some stories and and I’m encouraged.
Okay. Well, that was Jerry Rankin, doctor Jerry Rankin with the IMB, graciously coming into the studio and having the interview with us. It was great. Yeah. I really appreciate just kinda hearing the you know, you have that many years of experience and you’ve been to I mean, I I should have asked.
I I thought about it, and then I forgot to ask. I don’t wonder how many countries he’s been to. Right. I wonder if there’s any countries he’s not been to, I guess, are probably the easier way of thinking about it because just about every time, I talk to him, he’s either on his way out or on his way back from visiting missionaries, and he’s still very active in the field and coaching and training. Right.
The you know, the thing that stuck out to me for for doctor Rankin was that the fact that I mean, with his position, he has this huge bird’s eye view of what’s kinda going on in the world of missions. And and not only that, because he’s, you know, obviously the director was the director of IMB. He has, you know, all of that back history he probably knows a lot about. And so he I don’t know. It’s kind of a unique perspective that we on the ground maybe don’t get at the church or, you know I I just think we need more testimonies like that.
Yeah. I mean, we were we were at lunch, earlier that day with, Jerry Rankin and Mike Barnett, and they started talking old school I and b shop and Howard and I. Yes. Name dropping from, oh, you remember this story and this story? And I was thinking, dude, this is where we need the mic.
Right. I was like, this stuff is really interesting. Just to hear them kind of go back and talk about the early days of the IMB and reshifting the focus, because we didn’t get into that, but I mean, Jerry was pretty instrumental in reshifting the focus towards reaching the unreached and, reorganizing to specifically reach out to the unreached people groups and and that’s, I mean, that’s a part of Mission’s history. Right. And being a part, being a former YWAMmer, it was kind of interesting because our YWAM base, in particular, me and Trevor, was focused on on the 10:40 window, the unreached people groups, the least reached peoples on the earth.
And it was really interesting to see kind of, like, the, the influence the IMB has actually had in even shaping our base, and we didn’t even really realize it. No. No. We just thought those stats were I don’t know where I don’t know where they came from, but now we know. I mean, you have guys at the IMB like, Jim Haney, who’s very responsible for some of the maps that we see coming out of the IMB.
And I think these maps just sort of appeared to us and we were like, awesome. I believe it. Let’s go. Yeah. That’s all we need to know.
Like, you tell us where to go, we’ll go. Yeah. So, I appreciate the IMB because they’ve they’ve done a lot in in terms of reaching out, but they also do a lot in verifying things that you can trust when the IMB says that there’s a movement happening, that they’ve done due diligence and actually gone in and done the research because there’s so many stories that come out of the world today and you don’t know, are these stories true? But when the IMB tells them you can you can trust that they’ve already sent out a team, they’ve done the research, and I just really appreciate that. Yeah.
I do too because there’s just a lot of I don’t know. I I think there’s just some things that people, as the church can do irresponsibly and that kind of, dampens kind of what God’s doing. No. I think maybe they feel discouraged. They don’t have that bird’s eye view and so they see an Internet story and then they reproduce it and it becomes mission urban legend.
Right. And it’s meant to, like, encourage people, but then when you find out it’s mission urban legend, you’re like, what is this? Right. And, IMB takes the time and verifies and gives all the glory to God. So I do appreciate that.
But but I get where they’re coming from too because, I mean, I don’t know why I’m stuck on fishing today. Maybe I just really wanna go fishing, but Your boat is uncovered, by the way. Yeah. And I’m thinking about when you’re fishing and you’re not catching anything, do you ever just pretend like you’re trying to set the hook on something so that everybody else in the boat feels a little bit encouraged, like, oh, maybe somebody somebody I know does that, but it doesn’t encourage us, Trevor, when you do that. No.
I’ve actually I’ll I’ll pay attention when Howard’s not looking. I’ll just grab his line and pull on it and then I’ll try to set the hook and I won’t say anything and I’ll be like, oh, yeah, man. It’s going. Just so that we’ll stay out a little bit longer in hopes of catching something. And he doesn’t just tug on it, like, lightly.
Like, he jerks on the thing like I have a shark, like a mako shark on the end of my line. And so, of course, I’m setting the hook. And there are many times where it can be a very dangerous situation. You get triangle weight on the end, a giant egg weight flying out of the water at high velocity. Thank you, Trevor.
Yeah. That’s really encouraging. But you know what? You you stay out fishing because you’re like, man, that that was a good bite. No.
I don’t. I know it’s you. So I’m just saying and you’re on the ground laughing. I think I’m just feeling bad about my story about saying that that people that circulate these Internet stories, I was trying to relate with with the phishing story. And I think I just really wanna go fishing.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so the point is, IMB is a blessing. Yeah.
Jerry, I think we wanted to say. We appreciate you coming in today and, encouraging encouraging the church. Hope you guys were encouraged by that. Do write in, like always. You can go to, a lot of people are are saying, we don’t know how to spell Zweimer.
And I I understand. I didn’t know how to spell Zweimer. Are in there? Is it an s? Is it a z?
I’ve I’ve heard so many different ways of spelling it. So here’s the deal. Go to truthaboutmuslims.com. Boom. And so we just pointed that directly to the Zwemer Center website and, that will take you, to the podcast and you’ll be able to see on Podomatic and write in.
If you have comments, questions, feel free to write in and we’ll be happy to answer them and be sure to spread the word. Right. Please. Because we want, the voice to get out there. We want to have an intelligent voice.
Hey, we were business. We were number 73. No. No. 77.
That’s a better number. See, I just exaggerated it. 7. We were You get that, guys? Hello?
That’s full completion there. 7. We were number 77 on Christian podcast. And I think we started out, like, at 6,000 or something like that. We were, like, at the very bottom.
So I don’t know how this rating goes. Apparently, maybe if you just release podcasts regularly. I don’t know. But we had we had some downloads without ever we haven’t been advertising. No.
We haven’t put anything on Facebook, but you guys feel free to. So you put it on Facebook. Yeah. If you’re listening to this and you’re like, yeah. I like this and my friends would like this and or even if they wouldn’t like this.
No. If you don’t like it, don’t talk about it. Just pretend like you didn’t hear it. Alright. Right?
You okay? No. You don’t don’t write bad review. Just stay out of our business, guys. Okay?
You’re not interested. Go easy. Go easy. I’m just saying if you like it, spread the word. If you don’t like it, just pretend like you didn’t hear it.
Right. Go spread someone else’s word, I guess. Fine. I’m just kidding. So anyway write in if you have questions, comments, spread the word, truth about Islam or truth about muslims dot com.
Not truth about Islam. Talk about Muslims here. We’re not talking about Islam. I’m talking about people. Truth about muslims.com.
Alright. I’ll see you next week.
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Here starts the auto-generated transcription of The Heart and Mind of a Muslim with Dr. Matthew Stone:
It is a warning. Welcome to the truth about Muslims podcast, the official podcast the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media. Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. Welcome to the Truth About Muslims podcast. Episode 8.
Episode 8. We’ve got a great show today, but before we do that, let’s do our sponsors. Yes. Wiz Wimmer Center for Muslim Studies. The Wimmer Center equips, the Christian church to understand Muslims so that they can effectively reach them with the gospel.
Right. And Columbia International University. Columbia educates students from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ. Glory. Yep.
That’s ciu.eduandswimmercenter.com. Right. So today, what do we got? Episode 8. We’ve got an interview with, author Matthew Stone.
Excellent book. And a funny guy. Very funny. Right. Reaching the Heart and Mind of Muslims.
That sounds exactly up our alley. Yeah. Matthew has, 2 PhDs. 2. Right.
He has more degrees than the thermometer. You heard that correctly. 2 PhDs. He’s got one in philosophy of religion specifically, focused on Islam as well. He has a a PhD in psychology.
Right. And he’s also worked with Muslims. Right? Yes. Yes.
He has. He, well, we’ll let him tell you. He has. We’ll let you tell, let him tell about his story, and we’re gonna have a, a phone interview where he’s gonna share with a little bit about his experience. So without further ado, let’s get to the interview with Matthew Stone.
Okay. So we’re here, with, Matthew Stone. He is the author of a new book called Reaching the Heart and Mind of Muslims and I’ve personally read the book. I think it’s excellent and to be quite honest this is the this is the one book whenever I’m lecturing at a church and somebody says okay kind of break all this down for me in the form of a recommendation of reading, a reading list. And I say, okay, the first book you need to get in, Matthew, I’m sure you think I’m really kidding here, but I’m not, is actually your book reaching the heart and mind of Muslims.
So we’re gonna And Don’t don’t worry. We’re gonna edit that pause. Go ahead. I mean, I’ll use that for my, obituary. Okay.
Let’s let’s let’s let’s get going. So Okay. Sorry. All right. So, we’re really excited to have you on the phone here, Matthew.
And, could you just share with us a little bit about, why you wrote the book and, what is in the book? Why should people read it? Wow. Thanks, Trevor. I, wrote it in in it’s kind of funny because I wasn’t thinking about writing it, but I was talking to Warren Larson, an old friend, and I was complaining because I couldn’t find a book or a course in Muslim Studies that would kinda cover what I wanted to cover.
I mean, there there are lots of good books out there, but I wanted something that really, went beyond the usual approach of let’s try to find the weaknesses within Islam, right, and then exploit those rather than, you know, loving Muslims. Or for me, even more importantly, and I think this is a large part of the focus of the book particularly from the very beginning, was let’s quit thinking about Islam and treating it as its its one big thing. Instead of doing that, let’s look at individual Muslims and then collections of Muslims in groups where those groups may have differing interpretations of the Quran and Hadith, the sayings of the prophets, so that we begin to look at the diversity that exists within, you know, among Muslims rather than trying to paint with overly broad brushstrokes and make all kinds of errors in assuming that we know what individual muscles believe when in fact they they don’t, which we unfortunately see so much of in the, in the media. Right. So we’ve been talking about these these kind of topics on the show about how not to just compartmentalize these Muslims into one type of belief, like, for instance, ISIS.
So when you have a group of people that are so diverse in their beliefs, even when it comes from one text like the Quran, how do we as people learn how to, know how to deal with Muslims or reach out to Muslims even though they’re so diverse? Like, what what what would you say, our game plan could be? Because I you know, I think handles are pretty helpful, when saying, okay, this is what this people group believes. But, but we we kind of have this issue. We have this problem that the Muslims are so much diverse than that.
Right. I think part of the problem is language, and and when we have a term, we begin to treat that term as the reality rather than the thing to which a points. So when we have a a term like Islam, we treat Islam as the reality of this big thing rather than individual Muslims are the the reality. And for me, I think it is greatly liberating, that that fact, because because you can’t know what every Muslim believes or even groups of Muslims believe or even the diverse opinions within within groups of Muslims. It forces you to deal with the Muslim who is in front of you and to very very much be astute, listen to them, and let their explanation of what they believe and what they do be your, be your guide.
And then, you know, if you need to generalize that a little bit, you can generalize to that particular group of Muslim, but always be cautious that you’re not overgeneralizing that. But what but what we hear in the in the media and what we’re even hearing sometimes from the academic community is that there is, quote unquote a true nature of Islam. And so how would you deal with the Right. Question of what is the true nature of Islam? I mean, they do have a Quran.
They do have a set of beliefs. What would that produce in your mind? Right. Yeah. For me, that’s utter ignorance, that Wow.
That’s awesome. To be I I you know, to be generous is I think that, that’s exactly pointing out my point. That kind of essentialist view that there’s an essence to to Islam is just, so clearly wrong given the diversity. And the trouble is when you begin to say, oh, there is a single essence, and I can determine what that essence is by me picking up the Quran and the Hadith and reading those, then we make major mistakes in the order on the border on prejudice and discrimination, because it ignores the lived reality. The lived reality of Muslim is that there have been multiple interpretations of the Quran.
How who are we to just say which among those interpretations is the true interpretation? We don’t have access to that when Muslims themselves disagree. Right. The same thing with, the same thing with Hadith. I think it’s grossly arrogant for Christians or the media or whomever to say I have it figured out.
You know, I don’t want as a Christian, I don’t like it when a Muslim comes to me and says, this is what your Bible teaches, and then what they say does not correspond to how I see the Bible, or this is the significance of Jesus, when I don’t see the significance of Jesus that way. I think it’s arrogant of them, and it’s arrogant of us to do the same thing. I think it’s better if we acknowledge our ignorance and quit talking about essences and listen to that precious person who is in front of us and what they believe. Now I know I said that very stridently, but I do that deliberately because I think it really gets in the way and sabotages us in our relationships with people and with Muslims. When we assume, oh, ISIS represents the true Islam.
The peaceful Muslims are not living the true Islam. That’s nonsense. Right. That’s what Sam Harris says. Interpretation.
You know? There are multiple interpretations of that book. The Quran is just a book. You know, it’s just sitting there. It requires interpretation.
And historically, you know, it has been interpreted in multiple ways, and it’s just and it’s interpreted in multiple ways today, no different than the Bible, you know? That’s why we have so many different denominations because people choose to interpret it in so many diverse ways, you know, which is confusing for Muslims. And, and then they seize upon one and say that’s the essence, then that doesn’t represent what the vast majority of Christians even believe. So, you know, apologize if it was a little strident, but it’s a bit frustrating to to listen to that, because I think it sabotages us, and when it sabotages us, then we fail in reaching out to precious So so you say that it it sabotages us and actually, sabotages our witness as well or even our desire to witness. Could you could you build on that a little bit?
Help us understand what are the things that we’re doing to self sabotage before we can even be able to get to the gospel with Muslims? Right. For example, if if you assume that, you know, let me give you an example. I hear it over and over in the media more that leans towards thoughts, but the notion that Muslims practice Taqiyyah. You know what I mean?
That’s just simulation or that they lie. So explain that term, Taqiyyah. Yeah. Taqiyyah would be where a Muslim could say something that wasn’t true, a lie in you know, and typically, although that is practiced only about Shia and not all Shia agree completely on that, Sunnis, it’s it’s not practiced. It’s actually condemned largely by Sunnis.
And and yeah, when you hear, you know, the media talk, it’s like, oh, it’s practiced by all Muslims, and the effect of that is, therefore, you know, as a country, we can’t trust them. We can’t negotiate. They don’t have the cause of why. They’re liars, and and that has hugely practical and negative implications in how we approach someone if we think they’re just gonna lie to us about what they truly believe. When as you dig down and you you you’re dealing with an individual, you know, Muslim and talk to them, you’ll hear many of them say that that’s, you know, it’s, it that is not what we what we believe.
Of course, the trouble with that is that then the media go, oh, well, they’re practicing talking about here right now with me. You know? It gets to this paranoia where you can’t trust them at all. The trouble then is then you don’t approach them. You have no interaction with them at all, and I don’t find that a very helpful way to to talk to someone about the Lord, you know.
Right. If you can’t trust them. Well, that makes sense. Shoot yourself in the foot. That makes sense why that we talked about a representative from Oklahoma saying that you cannot trust anyone who says they’re Muslim, that you should be weary of anybody that says they’re Muslim.
So he’s operating out of that foundational belief that says that he’s probably lying, and I can’t actually ever know who’s telling the truth. He might be a terrorist. He might not. I I have no idea. And so Right.
He’s weary of every Muslim. Yeah. I mean, look. I’m a New Yorker. Sometimes I can get to thinking about the South in that way.
It doesn’t particularly help me. Right? Hey, now. I’m dealing with people from the South. And then I realized when I talked to them that some of them are actually quite nice.
I’d appreciate that. Southern hospitality. Yeah. And probably the same way with people in the south. But I think in a really concrete way, it’s just very it’s really sabotaging.
But I think deep down, often that’s motivated because people feel utterly inadequate about reaching out to Muslims. Well, acknowledge that. Acknowledge that you feel inadequate. Acknowledge that you’re scared. There’s nothing wrong with that, you know?
And begin to deal with that in healthy ways, and that’s a large part of what I deal with in the book about the beliefs and the thoughts that we have that get in the way, that cause us to have fear and anxiety about reading reaching out to Muslims. There are ways to overcome that. There are that are biblically based, you know, and that’s really what I wanted to address because often when when we Christians look at reaching out to Muslims, we began to see the Muslim as the problem, when really a lot of times it has to do with the way that we’re thinking and the emotions that come up within us that are really problematical. And, if we don’t deal with that, we we are missing an opportunity to witness to people who are who are loved by God and who who need the gospel as much as anybody else. Right.
I find it interesting that, the solutions that you kinda put forth has for our listenership, at least, that they have to go and meet Muslims. They have to go and and and have relationships and because I I don’t know. I just feel like, it’s so easy for everyone to kinda fall into the us versus them. This is what they all are. Yeah.
And then it causes division. You know, there’s no way to to reconcile it. But you’re saying they need to go and become students. They need to go and sit with these Muslims and become friends with them, have relationships with them. That’s that’s that’s, that’s that seems really tough for, a lot of people.
What where do you why do you think that is? Why do you think that we have such a hard time, not character characterizing, Muslims and and, people of Islamic faith? Well, it wouldn’t be the first group because I look you know, as we look through the history of the US and or any country. I mean, it’s not the US is bad, but we go through these different historical times when we demonize a particular group. We did it with the Chinese.
Right. We did it with the Italians. We did it with the Jews. We did it with the Irish. We did it with the African Americans, you know, and now it’s largely the Arabs, and those prejudices get supported by the media.
And I think it really because we have this deep down fear or anxiety about the other. And and I think a healthier way would be, let’s begin to deal with that anxiety and overcome that. So why why do why do we have why do we have such a fear of the other? I mean, this seems to be what Paul’s dealing with in the New Testament as well in the Jerusalem Council. You know, we have Gentiles coming to faith, and it’s almost like, so can they come to faith 1?
And then 2, what should that look like? How should they worship? This is a human problem, but, you know, with your background, I’m just kinda curious why is that? Well, because I think humans are essentially crazy. That’s your professional opinion.
But Christians because you that shouldn’t be a big surprise because of the fall. Right? Right. And so We have a right. Emotions are gonna be out of whack.
Our thoughts are gonna be out of whack. And I think when we begin to think in really unhelpful unhelpful ways like, I must be absolutely safe. I must know, you know, I, I it would be horrible if, I made a mistake in witnessing to these to these Muslims. You can’t trust them. They’re terrible, horrible, and awful.
Those kinds of irrational beliefs, you know, are not just applied toward Muslims, but all kinds of all kinds of situations. People have those thoughts about heights. They have those, you know, about driving on on the freeway. You know, and and the same unhelpful beliefs can get applied to Muslims and cause the self sabotaging behaviors. And I think there’s this you know, that’s why I love the example of Jesus so much when he just, through his actions, counters that, you know, with the, you know, with the, you know, people from different groups who are even seen as, you know, intrinsically unclean, and Jesus chooses, you know, to ignore that and through his actions, show the irrationality of those of those beliefs.
I mean, he he he’s just such a wonderful wonderful witness to how we can be. You know? He certainly didn’t embrace fear towards dealing with the other. No. I mean, if you think about it, just his interactions with a leper, a woman who’s been bleeding, Samaritan, you know, people that are unclean, people that the whole society has kind of put into this category of the other.
And Jesus crosses cultural boundaries, religious boundaries. I mean, just goes all the way over into reaching, you know, non Jews, Samaritan woman, a leper. I mean, you could just go down the list and trace all the interactions Jesus has. So you’re saying that he’s the model for what we as Christians should be, considering when we look at Muslims? I think so.
I mean, it would be nice if Christians use Jesus as a model, you know. It’s not a bad idea. Everything out. Not a bad idea. It’s not a novel idea.
You know what I mean? And so so I do think we need to get serious about that. And the other thing that I really like about Jesus is he was actually, if we talk about being easy or difficult on people, in some ways, he was quite easy on the people who didn’t know the significance of him and didn’t know really what it meant to believe in god and didn’t even understand the full nature of god. It is the ones that supposedly knew. Right?
The leaders that he was the harshest on. On the other hand, he has, you know, people who who had self defined themselves in ways that were limiting, like the man with his mat by the well. You know? And he’s like, get up. Take your mat.
Get out of here. You know? Go do something. That kind of see, that’s what he’s saying to us. Come on.
Whatever self limiting belief that you have that is per that’s causing you to just sit by the well rather than get up and go out there and reach Muslims and everyone else. Change that. Get up. Go go do something. Don’t wait for you to feel secure and safe and that you need to know everything.
Get up and go, you know? Can we talk about the media a little bit? It just seems like with CNN and Fox, liberal, conservative, kind of, this polarization that’s happening in the media, it seems like we’re inundated more than ever. I know that there’s been, like, in newspapers back in the day with, you know, the Chinese that coming over to build the railroad and the character as characterization of them. But it just seems like we have it infinitely more.
That’s just like, you know, like, I’m a youth pastor. And what I notice is my youth, you know, I have, like, 30 minutes to an hour a week. But then during the week, they have all of these influences that are kinda coming in and preaching to them their own messages. It just seems like with the media today that they’re, they’re receiving the the our listenership, the general Christian population in the US are receiving this huge amount of information or negative information against Muslims, against Islam. And, and so, you know, they it’s it’s I think it’s really hard for them to kinda rise out of that and and be Christ to them because they just keep hearing this message over and over, brainwashing.
Yeah. I I I yeah. And I think it’s even more complicated because often the church sides with one branch of the media, etcetera, with one message. Right. And and and really does not take up the responsibility of looking beyond those messages to the voice of Christ.
You know? But that’s that’s a scary thing if we’re if we’re taking sort of our theological cues through media outlets and is that that’s possibly happening, right, when it comes to Muslims? I I do think that’s the case. I mean, you I don’t like the word liberal and conservative because I think yeah. But that you know, I mean, because then I’m doing the very same thing that I say not to do with multiple.
Right. Simplifying. Let me commit that sin right now. Okay. Do it.
Yeah. And and let’s say those, you know, those churches that maybe a bit more liberal, will will, you know, they might gravitate more toward MSNBC or CNN or something like that Right. In VR, and then you’ve got the conservative churches that have baptized, Fox News, etcetera. Right? Right.
And so they see it as the the trouble is that, you know, we we we by wedding with 1 or the other, we don’t not navigate how Jesus might view the truth in in these different particular situations, and I know that’s the case because some of those media messages would be what you need to do is fear those people. What you need to do is hate those people, and that is not the message of Jesus. And why would we wanna wed ourselves with those kinds of messages? I think it is unfortunately then we are putting, the media or politics above our theology, and I don’t like that, you know. No.
I don’t either. But I’m I’m I’ve heard some people say that, hey, I can watch this stuff and it really doesn’t affect the way that I feel about Muslims. The way that I feel about Muslims is because what I know really is going on, but when I hear all this stuff on the media, I’m not really affected. What are your thoughts about that? Well, that yeah.
I run a, you know, I’m also a psychotherapist, and I run groups for guys who are addicted to sex addictions, and they will often come in and go, you know, I can watch pornography and it doesn’t affect me. And I go, yeah, why don’t we check with your wife about that, you know? Oh, yeah. What I mean, because it insidiously it insidiously makes you think about women in really disgusting and sinful ways. Right.
You know? The same thing. You’re getting bombarded by a message that says that Muslims are just evil, that you can’t trust them. That affects you. It can’t help but affect you, you know?
Or in the same way, or a message that says, you know, Islam is just a peaceful religion. Nonsense. Do you think that interpretations of the of the Islam that are good. There are some interpretations of Islam that aren’t. ISIS interpretation, the Taliban, Al Qaeda.
Those are evil interpretations based on the consequences of those beliefs. Right? Right. So that would be even the way we would refute. Like, some people would be like, oh, well, you’re for Muslims or you’re against Muslims.
You know, it it’s almost like Jesus is completely other. It’s like, no. We can take the real complexity, and then we can apply Jesus to that real complexity. This is a real person with real beliefs, real issues, and then deal with it at the heart of each individual. But that’s so complicated.
Right? That’s so that’s not easy. We want these evangelistic crusades and well, not crusades, obviously. But, you know, we want to use the c word. I think it’s easy, and we make it complicated.
Alright. Okay. Explain. It is so easy because what’s the what’s the reality? We all need to find our identity in Jesus Christ.
That’s true of a Jew. That’s true of a Muslim. That’s true of anyone, you know? Right. And that’s our goal.
That that should be our goal. And when it’s not and it gets often to other things, I think we are confused and we complexify things needlessly. Help us understand a little bit about your personal journey in working with Muslims, and and share a little bit about your story. I mean, we in the introduction, talked a little bit about your, your academic background, but how about some personal experience in working with Muslims? Yeah.
With yeah. I’ve had a lot of personal experience working with Muslims because it was a time in my life when I considered myself a Muslim. Right? Okay. Well, we didn’t share that we didn’t share that in the intro.
So go go ahead and explain a little bit about that. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and, you know, that was a that was a phase of my life, and eventually came to the Lord. And but what I realized, and I tell you that experience has been invaluable, it is the patience with which God dealt with me, you know, and the process with which he, you know, didn’t reject me, was loving and accepting to me throughout that whole process, and even some Christians who who were there were some some that were really pushy, wanted me to come up with some, you know they had a magical formula that I needed to say certain words, and that suddenly I would be different.
But then there were those who were wiser and saw it as a process. And I tell you, the way that god dealt with me and the way that really loving Christians dealt with me helped me to, you know, come to a real love for Jesus Christ. And I have really tried to hold on to to that in dealing with Muslims that I wanna be with them in the same way that God was with me when I was in error and, you know, at I I just, there are times when I get frustrated with Muslims. There are times I get frustrated with any of them. You know?
There are times that I’m just just so infuriated by ISIS and going, what in the world? And I blame Islam for that. I go, get a grip. You know? You gotta get back to, you know, the while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
He didn’t wait for us to clean up the act. He accepted us just as we are, and I realized that is my goal. That is my strategy. I guess there is one in dealing with the most I accept them just the way they are right now and realize that this person in front of me was creating the image of thought and that they’re and because the most infinite infinitely valuable person in the universe died for them, that makes them infinitely valuable to me and that I need to love that and be as gentle as possible, not hide the truth, but but realize that this is this is this process. Don’t know if that’s an answer to your question.
I think that was really the process of being a Muslim and realizing the hope of moving beyond. The Muslims them themselves were wonderful, the ones I dealt with. Not all of them. Some of my ones just smack upside their head, you know, but, the, but that’s true of everybody. Right?
Right. Yeah. That I mean, that’s it. One one thing I heard you say one time that I think was kinda life altering as simple as it was was, hey, they’re just people that happen to be Muslim. Right.
Yeah. We but we want we wanna define them so much by the religious identity that, that just might not be the case, and and we think of them as somewhat different because of their, faith. Yeah. I mean, but but beneath it all, we beneath all of that, we’re creating that image of God. Beneath all of that, we are apparently very valuable to God, or at least very loved by God.
And because we are loved by God, then we are valued. Right? Because we are loved, we are lovable. There’s nothing intrinsically lovable about us, but because we are loved by God, we are lovable. And to me, that is such good news and such liberating news, and that I could be the same way toward Muslims or or or anyone else right now.
I’m, although I like reaching out to Muslims, I love reaching out to atheists. I I I love them. You know? They’re just, they’re as crazy as I am, you know, and and still need, they need you know, Psalm 84, Trevor, was the one that always hits me when it says our hearts cry out for the living God. Our our hearts time for the living God.
That’s true for a Muslim heart as it is for our heart. Right. So if you have that assumption that because they’re created in the image of God and that the heart that is within them is given to them by God, they’re crying out for the living God. We need to be the people that represent God to them. Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit, represent the love of Christ to them.
Yeah. Not be an impediment and be a hater and all of those things. Be a hater. Right. You know, I’m just driving them away.
I don’t understand that mentality. Well, what about apologetics, though? I mean, it seems that the primary it seems that the primary motive whenever, you know, you’re sharing with, the church, it’s like, well, explain to us how to, convert a Muslim and defend the faith, and apologetics quickly turns into polemics. And the next thing you know, they’re wanting you to tell them how, how can I insult Mohammed or how can I take this approach, and and it’s very bizarre? I mean, what are your thoughts on all of that?
I’m not big on apologetics. I think it’s nice and it’s a nice profession and that kind of thing, to but I find apologetics is more for us, you know, becoming clear about what we believe. Mhmm. That’s a good point. Not necessarily so helpful in reaching out to other people.
Although we I mean, it’s nice to know the truth, you know Right. That you don’t wanna misrepresent things when you reach out to people. But why I don’t like the way the way that apologetics has gone is it is largely a cognitive thing. You know what I mean? And most people that come to the Lord, thinking is a part of that, but it’s largely the heart.
Right. You know, emotions and all of those kinds of things. We are not Spock, you know? There are just I mean, an apologetic assumes that everybody is fucked, and that by just racking them with truth, that that’s gonna make the change. No no no no no.
I mean, it’s I I that’s why I think, you know, you try to reach, you know, reach them as people, people with emotions, people with value. Right. Also, thinking people. We don’t wanna be, you know, just, Minus. Yeah.
I mean, you know, and be utterly irrational about it, but, I just think apologetics is pretty weak. Right. I’ve never led anyone to the Lord with apologetics. Yeah. I mean, it doesn’t reach the whole person Right.
You know? Has Jesus reached the whole person? I never heard him go did you ever hear him anywhere in the gospel go up? You know, well, here are the 3 main essential points about me that you need to grasp, and we need to get your systematic straight down. Right.
No. No. No. No. He dealt with them relationally.
Right. He touched their emotions and and their mind and and their mind. So much more time, Matthew. I mean, we we just don’t have the time to sit down and get to know somebody. You’re talking relationships here, and, that’s tough.
Yeah. Yeah. And time with money and all of that. Right. I understand.
Yeah. So you you shared some strategies. I don’t wanna say strategies, but you you shared your heart in reaching Muslims. You said patience was one of them. Being a student of of, of each individual, like, you know, what their what their experience has been, what what are some other things that you would share to encourage our listenership to to reach out?
For me, one of the things that I often when I often will do is be very honest that I don’t know a lot, and that I’m learning as much as they are, and that together, we can study together to see what, you know, what the bible says or, you know, those kinds of things. I mean, Carlos Maderas has been fantastic in that in that process. And I know he gets beaten up by people, but I don’t think he really cares that much. Good for him. Good for him.
You know, because I think he’s just so largely successful because he has this thing of loving Muslims, you know, hanging out with them, talking about life, and, and, you know, Paul Tillich, who was just this utterly liberal theologian, had this what he called the method of correlation, where he would correlate theology with the the person’s kind of lived existential situation. I like the method of I call it a more method of correlation to, and I’ve seen Carl do it, and I really like doing it, is you take what the person is going through and you make that connection with with Jesus or the word of Oh, yeah. Word of God. Not in an apologetic kind of way. Right.
But common ground. Kinda. Yeah. You know? But even those terms are loaded, common ground these days.
I mean, it’s almost like we’re being soft on on Islam because you wanna meet someone where they’re at. That soft I think what’s soft is to go the apologetic route or just to hate because that’s very easy to do. Woah. The hard the hard thing the hard thing is getting in there, being in relationship. I mean, anybody who’s married knows what I’m talking about.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. Love my wife. My wife loves me. I have to tell you, the 1st year at the end of my 1st year marriage, my wife said, was this easy for you? And I said, yeah.
And she goes, that’s what I was afraid you were gonna say. Things are gonna change. I loved that because, you know, this is not supposed to be easy when I when when when God describes marriage as like bone to bone and flesh of flesh, I think the word we have in English a complicated process. And I think reaching another human being with love and their faults and our faults is really complicated. Hating?
That’s easy. Absolutely. You know, we’ve gone the easy route. You know? Let’s go the difficult route of love.
That’s good stuff. As as we come to a close, I I was thinking in in terms of some of the things you’ve been doing here recently, with some of the think tanks. Could you share with us a little bit about some of the, participation you’ve had in, in think tanks? Yeah. There are some think tanks in Washington DC.
I’m I’m not gonna give the names right now because No problem. You see what I mean? Yeah. But they’re long established think tanks that are beginning to look at a a topic of Muslims in the United States. And one of the beautiful things that that happened as I was going there, and I always laugh because there are Muslims, they’re Jews, and they’re Christians.
Anyway, you know, here I was raised a Jew, became a Muslim, and now a Christian. So I went, I would get to represent all 3 groups. It sounds like the beginning of a joke. Right. I list the whole history of western religion, you know.
It is but the beautiful thing is that you you’re sitting across from from Muslims and and Jews and Christians who are like, how how do we cooperate, as citizens in the United States, right, on on really difficult issues. Be safe, and at the same time, live out this wonderful American tradition of religious liberty, and I find that so so exciting. And and, you know, there are difficult moments, and a lot of the work happens after the meeting when we go out for, you know, a late, a late Reuben sandwich, you know, or something like that, you know. I just wanna know what kind of restaurant you guys find where the Christians, Muslims, and Jews can all agree on something to eat. I mean, that sounds complicated.
It was a very that’s a very good question, Trevor, because the first time they said, well, you know, there’s a bar really close. And my Muslim said, let’s not. And and the the the trees were, like, why not? You know? And then the other was but then, you know, there was one barbecue place Wow.
Like, no. We don’t wanna go there, you know? Right. Pork barbecue does not float my boat. So, it it was really interesting to see that that die dynamic.
And so if it happens on those little issues, you can imagine how it happened with really big really big issues, but we learn to trust each other and listen to each other there. It’s really nice. I have to tell you, I was, one time I got a phone call from one of the guys who’s in the group. He says, you know, the meeting was supposed to start at 6 or 7, something like that. And he said, can we meet for a couple hours before that?
Because, I really want to know how a Christian feels when they worship. I really don’t know what that’s like. And we had a great time, you know, talking about that. I mean, that’s for me the real the real stuff that happens. The rest of the stuff talking about radicalization and deradicalization, I mean, that’s fine, you know.
But when you get down to hard issues and understanding each other as human beings, that’s for me more exciting. Well, I I can’t help but ask, and I I don’t know if you wanna talk about this. It’ll probably be the last topic. And and I’ve I’ve mentioned to you, we wanna have you back on the show as as often as you can, but I know that everybody’s question, because of your background and your training, they’re wondering what is, the psychological profile or the profile of a radical, a terrorist, not even just a Muslim terrorist, but a terrorist? That’s the big question everybody’s wanting to know.
How do we know who these people are, and what are your thoughts on that? Right. There’s a lot of research that’s been done, a lot of bad research, but a lot of really, really good research in the particularly in the last few years. And, overall, there’s great consensus. I mean, the, New York Police Department, FBI, sometimes just agrees on this.
Wow. But everyone else tends to agree that there is no good profile of a terrorist. And that that we are struck by the ordinariness of of of terrorists and the diversity that’s there. There’s some broad brushstrokes that they tend to be within a particular they tend to be male, they tend to be within a particular age group, you know, etcetera. But those are such broad categories that they don’t help you identify them in any way.
You know what I mean? Yeah. They’d be just about everybody in any way. To a mosque. Yeah.
I mean, you go to a mosque and everybody is a suspect. Well, that’s not real helpful. That might be part of the problem Yeah. That people are so afraid in in lumping everyone together. Yeah.
And and not to mention the violation of civil rights, along those lines. You know, if you’re if just by being a Muslim in a particular age group, you’re a suspect, that’s pretty pathetic, you know, and not real helpful. I mean, how do you use that to I mean, we only have limited resource, limited money. And when you paint with such broad brushstrokes, that’s not helpful for identifying the terrorists. So now the emphasis seems to be on what is the process of radicalization.
Right? That sounds interesting. Yeah. And, Dan, what would if if we focus on the process of radicalization, then what would be the process of deradicalization? I’m excited about that rather than the nonsense of what’s coming up with a pro come up with a profile.
Right. It’s too broad to be of any help to us at all. Right? Yeah. Well, I’m I’m glad that we talked today primarily about reaching Muslims, but I’m certain that listeners are thinking can we also talk about the process?
And so I’m hoping we can have you back and talk about some of the latest research that’s been done about that process. And maybe that would kind of bring back some of those fears and get us from keep us from, as you said, sabotaging ourselves and our witness. Yeah. I I would I would love to do that Wonderful. And love to hear from people who think that I’m utterly crazy and I need to consider it.
Consider other things that I haven’t considered and have that dialogue go on. That would be fun, you know? Yeah. Well, Matthew, thank you so much for your time. Thank you.
Yeah. It’s been a pleasure and, we look forward to doing this again. Okey doke. Okay. All the best.
Alright. Well, that was a great interview. Trevor, what do you think? Excellent. Excellent.
I really appreciate, his book and I think that he is able to, only in an hour give a little bit of an overview and that’s why we wanna make his book the resource of the week. Right. I you know, listeners, I I want you to think, I I don’t want you to think that this was Don’t think. Don’t listen. I don’t want you to think that this is all that is to know.
I mean, obviously, he has a ton more. So, please, like, read his book. Resource of the week is going to be that book. Yeah. He has the Kindle version is on sale.
It’s 599. Yikes. And I wasn’t exaggerating in the interview when I said, this is the book that I recommend to people when they after sharing in a conference or at a church and they say, you know, I wanna know more. What should I read? I do recommend this book as a starting point.
Right. And does he have other books? No. He’s got a few in the works, but he has a lot going on. Like he said, he’s working with some think tanks and he’s also got a pretty, busy practice as well.
So he he is a lot, you know, like I said, 2 PhDs. He’s got a pretty amazing, ministry going on right now. Right. It’s actually a privilege because he’s a busy, busy man, and he came and he did this, interview with us. He was gracious.
It was awesome. We had a great time. Yeah. So what did you think, Aaron? Actually, you know, it’s really, really interesting just to kinda, hear people that really have a heart for Muslims.
It’s it’s different. It’s like, it’s really different than the media. Right? The media, you kinda get this sense that, you know, we’re against Islam, but you you don’t really have the sense that they actually know any Muslims. Yeah.
That that was what was so challenging, or even enlightening is when he said, people are often accused that wanna sit down and sort of humanize Muslims as being soft on Islam. And his perspective was no being, soft is the one who is a hater because it’s not easy to do that. You don’t have to think. You just hate. You don’t have to sit sit down and get to know a person.
That was challenging. Good stuff. And it was a good point. Like, I hate being categorized. I hate being pigeonholed because I know I’m more than just that one element that they might have noticed.
Right? And then we’re doing this to to Muslims and then we’re being accused of being soft. It’s really bizarre. It’s funny because, you know, listeners, you don’t know this, but Howard is very talented in worship leading. But Thank you.
Because something about when you see him, you know, he’s Korean. You just assume, like, he’s really good at math or something. Right. No. No.
I’ve I’ve actually had people, like, if they’ve never seen me leave leave worship, they’ll they’ll sit down and be like, oh, boy. This is not gonna be good. Because I’m very Asian. I’m very Asian. I do have facial hair, which is bizarre.
But, I mean, they’re they they think, oh, this guy can’t speak English probably, and then he’s gonna start singing these songs and it’s gonna be awkward. And he comes out with this bluesy worship, and you’re like, woah. That was a bluesy. That’s nice. A little bit of soul there.
I appreciate that. I didn’t know that. Okay. Yeah. So I think what he helped us to do is what, really, we all need to be doing all the time is start actually getting to know people.
Right. Yeah. And that’s not easy. I agree with him. I think he made a really good point.
What’s easy is to hate, What’s hard is to get to know real people, to care about them, to have patience with them in their process just like Christ has patience for us. I mean, I know in my life it’s true. And and, and and really make an impact that way, 1 by 1. Right? Because it’s not gonna be this huge campaign that, you know, we’re gonna I don’t know what what we think of when we think in the media, but the media is very much like, they they manipulate it so that that, Islam or these Muslims are an enemy to our faith.
And I think a lot of times, the vast majority of Muslims, they just wanna eat some sandwiches. They just wanna go to school. They just wanna be left alone. Right? They’re not sitting there trying to convert every white person or every black person or every Asian person to to Islam.
Right? I mean, there obviously has been instances in the past, but this is very like like, Matthew Stone said, it’s complicated. It’s not that easy. It is complicated. Think of it in the terms of Christians.
Not every Christian really has any desire whatsoever to engage in the great commission. And then there are Christians that are very missionally minded. There are Christians that are theologically driven. There are Christians that are politically driven, sociological driven, and there’s a whole complexity of a person when it comes to, a religion and a religious text. And I think he brought all that home for us and and kind of broke down the oversimplification that we do.
Right. And I really liked what he said about apologetics. I mean, I do applaud these brilliant minds that come up with, these volumes of apologetics and and texts and stuff. But, at the same time, I love what he said. It’s helpful for us as a believer, but it’s really not helpful to convert, to to lead someone to the Lord with, with using, you know, philosophy.
I mean, really, it is a step of faith. To follow Christ is a step of faith. So, you’re not going to be able to lead them all the way to the point where they’re like, yeah, absolutely. Jesus is, you know, it is a step of faith, and I think that’s what we kinda have to remember. So it it maybe is a tool if if you can use it well.
Well, I think what he was saying is that it’s a tool, but it’s one tool. Right. You can’t just minister to the mind. Right. You can’t minister to the mind as though it’s this sort of part of the body that’s separated from the rest of the body.
You have a whole person. You have to minister to the whole person. Right. And I think you have to have a heart for Muslims from the very get go. I don’t think evangelism works when you don’t care about the people.
Well, that’s where he was saying we sabotage. That was that was enough to think about. Ask yourself that. You know, listener, have I sabotaged, my desires to reach out to a Muslim? Have I sabotaged the whole process before I even got to meet a Muslim?
And if so, how? And then ask yourself, how do I how do I correct it? That would be something worth writing in about. How have you or do you think you have, sabotaged your your evangelistic strategy with Muslims? Right.
Well, that’s it for this week. I’m so glad we got to have Matthew Stone on today. And, as always, we wanna hear your comments just like Trevor had mentioned, write in, and, that’ll help shape the show. But, we really appreciate you guys for listening. Yeah.
Make sure you check out his book on Amazon, Matthew Stone, Reaching the Heart and Mind of Muslims. Thank you. We’ll see you next week.
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Here starts the auto-generated transcription of Muslims… Political Pawns?:
Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. Truth About Muslims, episode 7. Alright. Today’s topic is, Muslims, are they political pawns? We’ve got a big midterm election coming up tomorrow in South Carolina.
Right. But first, before we go any further, we wanna talk about our sponsors. Sponsors. Columbia International University educates people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ. Right.
Love that school. And also, Zwemer Center. They’ve been focusing on Muslims since before it was actually cool in in the media. 35 years. 1979.
Mhmm. So check them both out at ciu.edu. And then, zwemercenter. Dotcom. Right.
So, did you like that kind of how we split that up? Yeah. Yeah. That worked. That we don’t even plan that.
It just kinda happens. Naturally. Alright. So let’s first talk about, yeah. What what what’s been happening?
I was I was telling Trevor about the Saturday Night Live this last Saturday. Chris Rock hosted the show, and he really did some interesting things. Yeah. It’s always interesting when you have something tragic in a society and you’re not sure when you can begin making jokes about it. And apparently, Chris Rock has decided now is the time.
Right. I mean, he talks about the Freedom Towers. Of course, just found out that, they’re they’re the stores, I guess, it’s opening. They’re they’re moving in. I think tenants are moving in today.
Office, offices have been rented. Right. And so and everything. Chris Rock and his monologue has a lot to say about the Freedom Towers, how he’ll never go into one of those things. And, I don’t know.
Like, it it is a kind of attention. I think in one point, in people’s life, I think comedy is something that really does heal, something to be able to laugh at, maybe even a type of normalizing. Yeah. You know whenever you start making jokes and then you see people’s faces and it was just too soon? Right.
And it did have that feel. Right? Like, so you’re watching the video, and you guys can check this out on, like, Hulu or whatever. But, like, it’s you can tell the audience is not sure if they should laugh, clap, what they should do. There’s some points in the silence.
City. Right. It’s New York City. So it’s really I mean, it’s there. It’s the it’s at their home.
And he even brings up the Boston Marathon bombing, and is is making jokes about it. So I I don’t know. And not only that, but they had a whole skit on ISIS and Right. The shark tank. Yeah.
So it’s it’s worth checking out because I think it gives a little bit of a hint as to where we’re at culturally. You know, comedians do a lot like musicians. The artists kinda show where you’re at as a culture and you can kinda just evaluate these cultural texts. And I think that Saturday Night Live, although some may disagree, I think Saturday Night Live is a good cultural text. It is.
It is. Because it kinda gives you an idea of what, people are thinking or or actually even shape what people are thinking. Because maybe, Chris Rock is able to laugh at this stuff, and maybe he’s teaching Americans how to laugh at this stuff. And therefore, now more comedians are gonna be following suit. But the question I have for us, and I’d like to hear from you listeners too, is, is comedy helpful to the church, and her view of Muslims?
Or does this hurt? Does it does it really kinda create that division still? Caricatureizing characterizing? I wish I could talk. Our view of Muslims, you know, and and, and, like, ISIS.
And I know that, you know, the argument would be, you know what? They weren’t they weren’t making fun of Muslims. Right? But then you have ISIS, these guys, with Arabic writing on these billboards as they’re trying to make their pitch to to the Shark Tank, you know, the the fake shark tank cast. Well, that’s kind of the point, and we’re gonna get into that a little bit later in the show.
But in in some ways, they were making fun of Muslims because on the one hand, people want to disassociate ISIS from Islam. But on the other hand, Islam is, or ISIS is very much connecting themselves with Islam. So Right. Yeah. It it was a very interesting show.
It’s worth checking out. And I think we need to put in the show notes also, Howard, do you remember the, the parody? I believe it was some some Pakistani Muslims that put on a parody about ISIS themselves. So even the Muslim world is beginning to, joke and kind of make light of some of these things that are happening because I think it at least creates a space where people can talk. And so Right.
And I think it also is an interesting tool to, for, for those Muslims that aren’t, you know, associating with themselves with ISIS to separate themselves from ISIS by making fun of them. Right. Exactly. But I thought I don’t know. It feels different when Americans are doing it and when not when non Muslim Americans like Chris Rock are doing it or the cast of SNL are doing it as opposed to actual Muslims that are saying, hey.
No. This is not who we are and therefore make fun of it. I don’t know. It just feels different. It’s kinda like when I can make fun of Asians because I’m Asian.
There you go. That’s right. But when I do it, somehow, it’s not cool. Right. So it’s it is interesting.
And I I I’m not saying that we have an answer or I have an answer. I just find it interesting that there is this cultural dynamic that comedy brings and and kind of shifts the way we think about things. Yeah. But it does prove the point. I think, I was teaching a seminar this past weekend, actually, last week, and I said, they asked me to give a little bit of an overview of what the seminar was gonna be so that people could attend.
And I said, you know, we’re gonna talk about Muslims. We’re gonna talk about ISIS because Muslims, ISIS, Muslim extremism, Islam, Mohammed, it’s like talking about the weather now. It’s something that people just talk about. Right. It’s everywhere.
And so I think Saturday Night Live proved that point. One of my colleagues said, well, maybe they just talk about it so much around here because we work at a Christian institution of higher learning. And I thought, no. I think this is pretty much the conversation going around, in the United States. And one thing that I wanna bring up because I know today’s topic is, about politics because we have an election tomorrow.
But, we had a, gosh. I can’t say the the senator’s name. It was, chief of staff of 1 of the, representatives that wanted to study at the Zwemer Center. He didn’t end up coming to study, but he did come to, view the program, have lunch, and just kinda discuss, studying for his master’s degree at Columbia International University through the Zwemer Center. And when I asked him, what what has peaked your interest in studying Islam, it was fascinating.
He said that Islam is all anybody wants to talk about in Washington. Really. Yeah. And he said the problem was that all of these people were talking about Islam. All of these people had all of these opinions about Islam and his conclusion was that nobody really knew what they were talking about.
You know, we’re gonna talk about Reza Aslan. Is that that how you pronounce his last name? Aslan. Aslan. We we chronicle an idea.
Yeah. Obviously, a CS Lewis fan. But he makes this cool point, in one of his video interviews on Huffington Post. And he’s talking about how, like, Ben Affleck, you know, with his debate with Bill Maher and Sam Harris. He’s she says, Bill, Ben Affleck is just this kind of normal guy, that doesn’t know much about religion, and he puts Sam Harris in that same group.
Yeah. And Sam Harris touts himself as somebody that knows a lot about Islam. But I, you know, I do think it is, it is peculiar that there’s a lot of people talking about Islam but don’t really know what it is. No. And that’s a scary thing when everybody has sort of these, hard and fast opinions about something, especially when it includes 1,600,000,000 people.
Right. Because this is real. I mean, we’re not talking about, you know, some fixed fictitious group of people. We’re talking about people that are in our country that are Americans, that are blue, blue blooded. Red blooded Americans.
Blooded Americans. Red blooded Americans, right, that that, that care about our country. And at the same time, we’re we’re handling it, I think, with, irresponsibly, I think, in a lot of cases. The question today, regarding Islam and politics and I think the reason that this is so important is you’ll see whenever there’s an election coming up whether it’s a midterm election or a presidential election more and more the topics begin to shift towards radical Islam. It almost becomes a what would you call it like a political slogan.
Right. So I started to look and see. I wondered if anybody had done any research and if you if you’re aware of a research project that’s been done on this I’m curious. Has anybody done any research looking at the, media with Muslims whether or not that escalates during election years? I was just curious myself.
What’d you find? No. I couldn’t find anything. I was actually, looking, and I couldn’t find anything before the show, but I was kinda curious as to whether or not that was true because it seems that way. Right.
And I don’t know if I’m just you know, it seems that way to me. But here’s here’s kind of the thing that I did come up with as I was searching that out is that, you know, we tend to think of our perception as, reality. You’ve you’ve heard that saying. Right? Perception is reality.
Right. What we think is what we yeah. Okay. So this is what people perceive of Muslim immigrants in the United States. Are you ready?
Bring it. In 14 different countries, the survey was done. And they would ask them what percentage of your population do you think are Muslim? The average American that they asked believed that 15% of the American population was Muslim. Okay.
The actual percentage of Muslims in the United States is 1% or a little less than 1%. Get out of here. Yeah. So they’re 15% versus 1%. Are you serious.
Yeah I’m serious. Now here’s the here’s the catch right. I mean if people believe that Muslims represent 15% of American citizens you can imagine why they could very easily become political pawns as as it says in the title of the show. Right. And so But 1%?
Well, Pew Research has it at 0.6%. Okay. That’s still a tiny, tiny, tiny number. No. It is.
It is. But we perceive Muslims to be so, you know, just sort of widespread throughout American culture and, you know, you can just begin to think that, there is Muslims on every corner, and the reality is it’s a pretty small number. It’s a really insignificant number of Muslims living in the United States. Right. So but here’s the other one that was really interesting.
They asked them, what do you believe the percent percentage of Christians are in the United States? Okay. What what is this one? They believe that the number of Christians was 56% when in reality it is are you ready? Drumroll.
I can’t even make that with my mouth. I can’t either. Alright. Oh, that’s pretty good. Oh, that’s pretty good.
Yeah. Alright. So they believed it was 56% Okay. Of Americans are Christian and in reality it’s 78%. What?
78%. What? So here here’s what it comes down to. When asked about, Muslims, they way overestimated and when asked about Christians they way underestimated. Right.
And that that’s the perception, held by a lot of Americans. Okay. And so when we’re talking about Christians, because I know this is what people are gonna be thinking, they basically ask, do you believe in Jesus? Well, of course, in that number, they’re including, evangelicals, protestants, Catholics. Right.
Altogether. Exactly. Okay. Alright. So 70 that’s that’s a ridiculous number, but okay.
Yeah. That’s a lot. But But if you if you have this perception as a believer that, well, first of all, as a believer, I know that I’m in the minority. Right. You start to And that Muslims are creeping to become the majority.
Right. That’s gonna affect the way in which you view the world. Well, you have in the media all the time people talking about birth rates, especially in Europe. Right? Muslim birth rates are, like, quadruple or some, you know, ridiculous number beyond what normal Europeans are birthing.
Right? Because, the Muslims are just popping up babies, apparently. Baby factories. And and so people are afraid. They’re like, well, you know, by this time, you know, in 10 years or 15 years, you know, the the general population will be the minority.
Okay. So I saw that YouTube video and you even have they’re they’re quoting in the video, Muammar Gaddafi. Okay. Which I’m thinking, really? We’re gonna take Muammar Gaddafi’s sort of word on how, Muslims are gonna take over the world?
Like, they’re using it as a quote. Like, you see, even Muammar Gaddafi has said this. Okay. Anyway, I haven’t seen the video. So what does it say?
What’s what’s going on with it? This is a real we gotta put add that to the show notes. There’s a there’s a YouTube video that starts off with, like, and it’s like Muslim immigration. It it almost sounds like one of those guys doing a, a movie preview or a trailer. Trailer.
Yeah. So it’s like Muslim immigration. Within 20 years, Russia will become a 100% or a majority Muslim country. The entire Soviet Union is gonna and it’s just kind of the scary, like, oh my goodness. I had no idea.
You know, France is gonna be Muslim in 10 years. Russia is gonna be Muslim in 20 years. China is gonna be Muslim. And and the whole point of the video is the world is gonna be Muslim in like 50 years. Right.
And And so they they do the mathematics for you. They actually show you based on birth rate because the average So it’s by birth rate. It’s not through, you know, like, where they’re reaching out and converting people to Muslim to Islam. No. No.
It’s just it’s just birth rate. Okay. So they do this, this model, and they show you that the average birth rate in France for a a non Muslim French citizen is, you know, 1. K. And the birth rate, or less than 1, I think it was.
It was, like, 0.8%. I don’t know what a 8% of a child looks like, but 0.8%. And then the average birth rate of a Muslim was, like, you know, 7. And so they did the mathematics to show you that they 7? Yeah.
No. I’m serious, man. I wanna play the video right now just so we can see it. And so you’re you’re watching it and you’re just sitting there like, oh my goodness. It’s over.
You know? Like We had a good run, guys. France is gonna be Muslim in 10 years. What else? Oh, Russia too.
Okay. Germany too. Norway too. Belgium too. And so you just start to have this, you know, this footage.
And then all of a sudden, there’s just no hope. And then they get to America. And here was the kicker. You’ll get you’ll like this, Howard. Okay.
The only thing that was keeping America not majority Muslim within, like, 10 years, it’s gonna take, like, 25 years or something ridiculous like that is the Hispanic population. I was just gonna say the Hispanic. Yeah. That’s right. So, that’s a shout out to me madre, Arorita Escobar.
Yeah. So the the Hispanic population is actually what’s keeping the Muslim population at bay. And so you watch this and it’s pretty convincing. And I’ve seen it. Churches have used it in their services because at the end and I don’t know who produced it, but at the end, it was basically like, so get out there and share the gospel with Muslims before they take over the world.
Wow. But here here’s Fear tactic. It’s a fear tactic, and it’s utter and complete nonsense. Yeah. Tell me.
Enlighten me because I’m kinda scared. I just Howard’s looking it up right now on his computer like I had no idea. I was just thinking of an invasion of babies. Little little, Muslim and, baby invaders. Right.
It’s coming in. I’m like, oh, no. Okay. So here’s the idea. It’s not a static model.
Okay? So, think of Muslim friends that you have here in the United States. Maybe their parents come in and they have 7 children because the mortality rate, you know, is quite different in say Pakistan or Afghanistan or Iraq. Right. So it is quite normal to have 7, 6, you know, something, like that children.
But you come to the United States. So are your 7 children also going to have 7 children? Well, the answer is no. Right. Because they’re gonna fall into the culture.
Enculturation, basically. Yeah. They’re gonna acculturate. They’re gonna lose some of their old culture, take on some new culture. They’ll probably, within that second generation, marry a fellow Muslim probably even from the same ethnic background.
But what about the next generation, the 3rd generation? And then eventually, you end up with a 4th generation that is saying, well, I don’t even know if I want to marry somebody from that cultural background. They might consider themselves more American than they do, Iraqi. They might consider themselves not even Muslim or just Muslim in name only. They might not even marry a fellow Muslim.
They might not have kids at all. Yeah. Actually, not even 4th generation. Like, if you look in Koreans, I’m I’m Korean. There we go.
Let’s get personal. Howard, tell us about the 1st generation Korean because you you can speak to this. Right? I mean, 1st generation Koreans versus 2nd generation Koreans. There’s some gaps there.
Right? There’s a huge difference, and it’s a crisis because Koreans are staunchly Korean. Mhmm. They moved to the states, and they want their kids to be Korean. Mhmm.
And not just in, you know, in in skin color skin color or just, you know, not just in in name alone, but, like, for real through and through, food. Yeah. Cold language. Especially language, to know their history and all that kind of stuff. But do you still find Koreans, this we call them 2nd generation, the kids that were born, to immigrant parents in the United States?
They’re they’re marrying Westerners or Well, wait a second. You married a Westerner. Right. So you’re a classic example. I’m on the fringe.
I’m on I’m a I’m daring. But But that’s a good example. Right? I mean, Koreans are experiencing the same thing. You can’t assume because the first generation had these sort of, this ethnic identity or these, practices that were maybe religious or cultural, political, that those things are necessarily going to carry on.
Right. And something that’s really interesting is that my grandparents, they had, like, I’m not even kidding. My grandfather had 2 wives, and I think he had, like, 6 yeah. But at the same time, not not not, not married, you know, and divorced or lost one. No.
I mean, he was married same time. So your grandfather was a polygamist? Correct. In the United States? No.
He actually moved to the States with, his first wife. And Yeah. Very interesting. And his second wife stayed in Korea. But he had, like, he had, like, 16 kids, maybe even more than that between the 2.
And my father, he only had 2, me and my little sister. So And then Howard picked up the pace. Right. I have 5. So I try to meet in the middle, trying to be a little bit more, you know, traditional, I guess.
Actually, my wife retained that part of his career when I My wife just really enjoyed being pregnant. She just loves babies. Oh, man. But that that’s a good that’s a good point. I mean, your your your grandfather had 16.
Your parents had 2. Right. And so there’s no it’s not a closed system where you can just do this exponential math mathematics and say, hey, this is what we’re gonna end up with. Right. Just theory.
I mean, we know that the reality is not oftentimes line up with theory. But anyway, that video is a good example. It’s another one of those sort of, fear tactics. But one of the other reasons that I think Muslims, always seem to come up to the forefront when it’s an election year I was kind of looking at some of the latest research that was done by the Pew Foundation and one of them was the public’s view of the global threats facing the US. Guess what’s at the very top?
Number 1. Let me get that drum roll again. Number 1. ISIS and Al Qaeda. Wait.
That’s the number one threat? The number one global threat facing the United States is ISIS and Al Qaeda. Interesting. 70 percent above North Korea above Iran and and their nuclear program, above Russia and its tension with its neighbors, above Ebola, I can’t get started on that. Above above climate change.
That’s really interesting. Israeli Palestinian, ISIS and Al Qaeda. So you could understand if you’re running for political office and you know that 70% of Americans see radical Islam as its number one global threat to our safety and well-being, then you have to talk about it. Right. That’s the hot button.
They’re gonna sit on that button all day long. Just keep pushing that button. Right. Exactly. So you, now they’re obviously within the political parties there’s some discrepancy.
The Republican Party has sees ISIS and is radical Islam as a higher threat than, the Democratic Party. So that’s why you might see, Republican candidates speaking about it more than Democratic candidates. Yeah. But the and, see, this is the thing that we’re kinda coming back to in the show is that the problem is I think these the the hot button per se is really affecting the way Americans think of Muslims. Yes.
I mean, we’re painting in these broad strokes that every Muslim is ISIS. Ultimately, you’re walking around afraid. Yeah. You know? I didn’t know the numbers were that high, where they’re just walking around thinking that this is the number one global threat to the US is ISIS and Al Qaeda.
Yeah. And I don’t know, man. So, like, back to our question on our show is, are Muslims political pawns? Well, I mean, they’re certainly being used in some ways, whether we would wanna say their political pawns or not. We’ll we’ll let the listeners decide.
But one one of the statistics that I saw that was fascinating. Okay. So you have Republicans there right at about 78% that see ISIS as a major threat so they’re higher and you have the Democrats at 65%. So they’re a little bit lower but they also that’s a that’s a majority. Right.
See ISIS is a major threat. Then you have the Tea Party. Okay. Would would that be on the republican side? Well, they they, did a special, survey of the tea party.
Okay. 91%. Of course. So 9 in 10. Right?
I mean, 9 out of every 10 Tea Party members say that, yes, this is the big threat is is ISIS. So you’re saying that the Democrats, Republicans, and Tea Party would actually agree on something? This is something we can all agree on. Right. And it’s a hot button.
It’s the hot button. So this political season, this is what people are gonna be talking about. Yeah. And it’s why you see all of these ads talking about radical Islam. Right.
And which leads me to, this interview that was on Huffington Post with, John Bennett. Oh. This is our boom goes the dynamite section. Right. But even before, I wanna kinda talk about some of the things that he says.
I mean, he says some really inflammatory things that kinda lead me to questions that I wanna ask of you. And I know that, you know, like, right now, there’s other guys that you wanna ask too, but just kinda wanna hear your viewpoint. But the whole idea is Bennett is just talking about how Islam well, the first thing he says that’s really interesting is that Islam is not a religion. That’s right. Islam isn’t even a religion.
He says it’s a social political system that uses a deity to advance its agenda of global conquest. He’s really excited about that too because every time he’s interviewed, that’s what he says. He’s like, got it memorized. Islam isn’t even a religion. That’s his hot button.
So, apparently, if you are, if you are a Muslim, then you’re a part of this social political system. Yeah. So okay. Good. Well, anyway, the point is that he says these interesting things, and one of the things that he says that I found that really kind of was made me question some stuff is about Islam.
Is the root of Islam really, bringing us to be, bringing them to become terrorists like Sam Harris would would suggest or Bill Maher. Does that is the the does the crown really support that? Right. Okay. So here’s my view.
First of all I don’t think that any non Muslim should be making these huge claims about what Islam actually is. So and that goes on both sides. So we have, both president Bush, president Barack Obama, and I’m sure the next president as well will probably say the same thing. All 3, will probably have the same conclusion that Islam is a religion of peace. Okay.
Yeah. So so both Bush and Obama and I say whoever’s elected next will say Islam is a religion of peace. And then you have a probably a larger majority of politicians that say, that Islam is in fact violent, that the true nature of Islam is a religion of violence. And this has a lot of strong evangelical voices behind it too. And I won’t name any names but you just need to go online and look.
And there’s a there’s a large group of evangelicals saying that Islam through violence intends to conquer the world. Right. And so my perspective is that I don’t think that we need to be talking about Islam as a religion of peace or Islam as a religion of violence. I don’t know that Barack Obama, George W. Bush, or any of these evangelical leaders have the leg to stand on to say what Islam is because they’re not practicing Muslims.
Okay. Although some people would argue Barack Obama is a practicing Muslim. I understand. Somebody are like, woah. Woah.
Wait a second. Wait a second. Obama’s a Muslim. No. None of them are practicing Muslims and so I don’t think that they can I don’t think they should even be trying to discuss what Islam is because they’re not Muslim?
We need to just ask the Muslims. Okay. But can’t but we can talk about it though, right? No. We can we can talk about it and we can say that, hey, certainly there are those Muslims out there that are peaceful.
And so obviously there are Muslims that say Islam is a religion of peace. And then there are Muslims out there that are most certainly violent and so we can say that Islam can be a religion of violence as well. You have both. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. That’s way too simplistic to take the complex religion of Islam that is 1,600,000,000 people that has been around for more than a 1000 years and has had all of these different expressions since the very beginning.
Right. You have opportunities for Islam to display itself in very violent forms and you have opportunities where Islam has for instance a golden age where it’s at the height of society and it’s producing some of the best architecture the world has seen some of the best. You have astronomy. You have medicine. You have mathematics.
You have philosophy. You have all of these wonderful things. It is like a renaissance before the renaissance ever happened. And so you cannot just say well if we’re looking at 9th 10th century Islam that Islam is a religion of peace and high higher learning. Because the 9th 10th century aren’t the only centuries in which Islam is existed.
But we don’t like that, Trevor. No. It’s so much easier to just make a simple statement, right? Islam is a religion of peace. I I just want Islam is a religion of violence.
I just want 3 points. Just give me a yes or no. Yeah. Just tell me what I need to know so I can just go away and make my own, you know, conclusions. Well, let’s do it with Christianity.
No. We need to, but that’s not fair. We’re we’re talking Let’s pick a century, alright, of Christian history. Hey. You remember when we had 3 popes?
Yeah. Yeah. That was a good time. That was a really good time. Nobody would wanna do that.
Nobody would wanna pick, say, maybe the 13th, 12th century of Christianity and, go ahead and say, let’s look at that century of Christianity. Let’s take out the theologies that are being produced and let’s go ahead and make an all encompassing statement about what Christianity is based on that one particular time. But okay. Let me play the devil’s advocate here. So but with Christianity, okay, we have some horrible history where we’re burning heretics at the stake.
We’re not doing things that are Christ like. We’re selling, you know, tickets into heaven kinda thing. You know? Yeah. We’re we’re doing some horrible things.
Mhmm. However, the where we are today has kind of produced this type of fruit where, in general, Christians are known for being well okay. Alright. Go ahead. In general I just stuck my foot in my mouth.
But general you know, hopefully, genuine Christians that you meet on the street are, you know, they’ve waived the banner of love. I’m just thinking, like, in political terms where Christians are known for hating everything. But but you you know what I’m saying. Like, in on on the ground, you’re gonna meet people that that profess Christ, and they’re probably gonna be pretty loving. That’s kinda their their hallmark.
That’s, like, who they are as far as that religion has produced. Christianity has produced this type of person. In Islam, John Bennett We’re just talking about the monks. Right? I mean, that’s the Right.
Okay. I mean, Howard, you have to determine what what point in history are we talking about. Are we talking about today? Are we talking about in the United States? Are we talking about in the South?
Are we talking about in Right. It’s all a huge shift in Oklahoma. How about just this one particular guy in Oklahoma who is claiming to be a believer and he’s telling everybody that they need to be wary of any Muslim. Right. I mean, there’s certainly not much love in, what I would say Christ like character coming out of a lot of the rhetoric that we see being spewed from some Christians.
You’re right. You’re right. You win. So we have to be very we have to be very careful about how we, impose sort of what what we’re gonna use to be the judgmental factors of any particular religion if if we’re not willing to do it ourselves to our own context. We need to be careful.
Right. Because we we all have obviously differing views of Christianity. I mean, look at, Westborough Baptist Church, The Hate Church. Moe, but but they’re not Christian. Yes.
That’s what we say. Yeah. We do. And so let’s think of it in those terms. I would say when when my atheist friend comes to me and says you Christians are a bunch of bigots.
Right. You Christians are a bunch of racists. You Christians are a bunch of, people that hate, and they have a whole list and I just wanna look at them and say, why don’t you quit defining for me who I’m supposed to be? Who I’m supposed to be? What I believe.
Let me tell you. Just because you saw all these other people that believed all these other things and you wanna tell me what I’m supposed to be because of what Westborough Baptist did or because of what happened in this particular century of Christian history. Or your Sunday school when you were a kid and somebody was mean to you. How infuriating is that? It is.
So why do we do it to Muslims? Because we can. Because it gets us elected, Trevor. Yeah. It gets us elected.
No. We we have to be careful. I I I don’t wanna use the word fair, but I just wanna feel like saying I don’t only reason I don’t like the word fair is my son says, oh, it’s not fair. But he doesn’t mean it. Yeah.
He means I didn’t get my way. I think I think what we’re at here is 3rd grade theology. Right. Again. Treating people the way we would want to be treated.
So, Howard, I don’t know how you feel about it when somebody comes along and pulls one verse out of the Bible and says, you see, the Bible is a violent text. Right. I wanna knock them in the nose. Is this is this a safe place for this? Yeah.
And show that it’s a violent act. You got me again. You got me again. But we do that with Muslims. And now here’s the reality.
Is Islam capable of producing violence? That’s I think the big question that we were we were talking about earlier because this particular representative, he was saying that, the true nature of Islam. And I have, colleagues that would argue there is a true nature of Islam and it is violent. So let’s let’s hear that perspective as well. Right.
So tell me. Well, okay. So how do you how do you end up with people reading the same text producing very different ideologies and theologies and practices? Interpretation. There you go.
You have people. Right? Yeah. That’s where everything goes awry. Dang it.
It’s always the problem. You have people people reading and interpreting. And so when you think about Islam, you can think about it in terms of historically. Let’s put it into terms that, we can understand for a Christian sake. Think about the Catholic Church all the way up until the reformation.
Yes. You as a Christian as a Catholic did not have the freedom to read the text for yourself and come up with your own interpretations. Those were kind of handed down. Well, not only that. Most of the population probably were illiterate at that time.
There you go. You weren’t even reading the text. You didn’t get that opportunity. And it was in Latin. Mhmm.
And the service was in Latin. Okay. So you you Sorry. I get carried away. So within, a similar context within Islam, they also have sort of, I guess you could say like the Catholic Church they have these schools of law that are going to hand down sort of the ways in which things need to be interpreted in the ways in which Islam needs to be lived in the certain context of the time.
And so throughout throughout the history of Islam, you have different representations and they’re figuring out ways how do we want Islam to be lived out in the 21st century. So that’s what exists within the majority of the Muslim world. So kind of like a, a living breathing Islam, a folk Islam, the people Islam. Well, I mean just an orthodox Islam that you have these certain teachings and you have these certain beliefs and practices and how those practices get fleshed out. Well, that those those determinations are not made by a guy reading his Koran in his room at night.
Okay. But you do have some people that have these kind of off the wall interpretations where they say no we need to be, fighting against the infidel. And so they take these verses out of the Quran and they say that we want to fight the jihad, the holy war, or we want to struggle against the West and they come up with their own interpretations. And then you have these splinter groups like the Salafi Muslims, which would be a good example for the jihadists that you have in ISIS. And now, I know what you’re thinking, listeners are thinking, so you’re saying that if they just read it themselves, they would all come up with this radical interpretation and that’s we have to stop doing that.
That’s not what I’m saying. Okay. I’m saying it’s possible. But the vast majority of Muslims and the vast majority of the commentators and the scholars are not coming to those conclusions but you do have some individuals that are coming to those conclusions. I don’t know if you guys can hear it or not but there’s my dog again.
It’s just about every time during the day that mailman comes by my dog goes crazy. We try to record around the mailman. So Mailwoman. Anyway, so, within Islam, you have to have the consensus of the scholars, which is extremely difficult to do. Right.
Because they’re all over. There you go. And so there’s all of these things that have to happen within Islam before these sort of rulings take place that are gonna kinda depict the way the religion goes. And so you’ve had that throughout the history of Islam. And so when you have this one particular guy, for instance, for ISIS or Ayman al Zawahiri or any of these other, radical leaders, they’re kinda off on their own.
Now, they do have a following. It’s not a large following, but they’re off on their own. They’re outside of the bounds of what would be considered orthodoxy. Okay. Got it.
I’m checking with you. So the big question is, well, which is the true interpretation? There is none. I I say no. Well, let me ask you how are what is it?
What does it mean? What makes a person Muslim? Submission to God. Alright. Submission to God.
Anything else? The 5 pillars. Okay. Five pillars. Am I doing okay?
No. Okay. Let’s let’s think about this for a second. Do you know any muslims? Yes.
Of the muslims that you know do you know any that don’t participate in the 5 pillars? Well, the pilgrim pilgrimage, right, is one. Right. But some some Muslims cannot. Right.
But all the other Muslims, you know, are regularly giving the zakat, the the the tie that they’re supposed to be giving. They’re probably not. Okay. That’s my guess. Yeah.
I mean, I didn’t really ask them, but, you know, just looking at tithing in the church. Let’s just look at fasting. They’re all fasting the whole month of Ramadan faithfully. Right? That’s a tough one too, man.
Because, in Ramadan Ramadan, you can’t you can’t even smoke. Right? Right. And you can’t have sex. Nope.
But you know Muslims I mean, pause. How many how many times do you remember being in Muslim countries where you would see Muslims that the more you got to know them that some of them would show up at your house because you could eat Ramadan. Right. Right. Right.
Right. But were they Muslim? Yes. Right? Because they said they were Muslim.
Uh-huh. So if we get down to it, if you have somebody that says, hey, I’m a Muslim and they have this sort of basic belief and practice, who are we to come along and say, no. You’re not. We’re not even part of the community to be, you know, sort of throwing people out of the community. But you have Muslims that have this wide array of belief and practice.
Some are fasting some are not fasting. Somebody well they have to at least be a believer in one God. Listen I’ve met Muslims that are clearly when it comes down to it atheistic in their belief, but yet they still call themselves Muslim. I I guess I could see that with Christians. There are a lot of Christians that believe some things that are pretty wonky, but would still consider calling themselves Christians.
Yeah. And so Christians have a hard time answering what does it mean to be Christian, but we’re so good at saying what it means to be Muslim. Yeah. You’re right. So in in in my opinion, let’s stop determining what makes a person Muslim and let’s start asking Muslims, are you Muslim?
Right. And if the answer is yes, well, tell me about that. What does it mean to be Muslim? But despite all that, the the the big question is, okay, so and I had a colleague asked me this recently, if I just read the Koran with the correct historical interpretation and use, the best hermeneutics possible, will I come up with a radical interpretation or a peaceful interpretation? They want a yes or no answer, of course.
Right? Yeah. And I said That’s what I want. It’s not that simple. It is way too complex to just break it down into this sort of what will I get?
Yes or no? Radical or not radical? Because you have all of these different, ideas. So one for instance that we have to talk about. This will help us to understand and I hear people throwing this around even our our politician friend threw this word out there.
He talked about abrogation. Right. And so he says that well, what people need to realize is that Islam has some peaceful stuff but it also has a ton of violent stuff. I think he said 99 or 90% of it was violent. He said 90%.
Clearly, he’s not read the Quran because 90% of the Quran is not violent. Yeah. But there is violence. Certainly, there’s violence. But the violent parts of the Koran, do tend to come in the later part of the Koran.
Now, here’s the deal. When you’re looking at the Koran, it’s not in chronological order. Kind of like the Bible. Right. The New Testament letters are not in chronological order.
They’re in order, longest to shortest. Well, I don’t remember the New Testament that way as well. Right? Long, letters of the longest to shortest. Well look the Koran is the same way.
You have the first chapter called the opening. And then from that point on it’s the longest to shortest. And so there’s no chronology. And so most Muslims don’t know the chronology. Most Muslims don’t actually even read the Koran I would say because it needs to be read in Arabic and it needs to be recited.
It’s not even a text that’s really supposed to be read. It’s supposed to be recited. Okay. And then within that, the text doesn’t follow a chronological order. So how do you know well, you could get a list of the chronological order of the Quran and read it in that way if you wanted.
You mean they don’t have like 50,000 translations like we do in English? Well, they’re starting. They’re starting with some translations. They would be called interpretations though because interpretive decisions are made when you change it from the Arabic to the English. But you know what?
The same things happen when you interpret, when you translate the Bible. Right. Remember your first year of Greek? Oh, my gosh. It was so stressful.
Yeah. You start realizing make these decisions and Yeah. You realize that people make interpretive decisions when they translate. So anyways, that happens in the Quran as well. So they don’t call them translations.
They’ll call them interpretations. But this idea of abrogation is the idea that the, if there’s 2 verses that are in any kind of contradiction that the later is going to cancel out the earlier and it just so happens in Islam that the more violent interpretations are later. Right. So if you know that reading in chronology in chronological order that’s going to affect the way you interpret the text. Right.
But here’s the problem. Not all Muslims agree with abrogation. What? Yeah. That’s the thing.
You can say, well, there you go. It’s as simple as that. If the more violent text are in the end and the more violent text have abrogated the peaceful text, then islam is there by violent. I mean, it makes sense, doesn’t it? Yeah.
I don’t know why I’m surprised because look at Christianity with dispensationalism or or covenantalism or Arminianism or Calvinism or give me any other ism. Right. It’s all it’s like a different interpretation. I mean, they’re just looking at it from different perspectives and come up with different things and, even responses, behaviors. So there’s there’s division within the Islamic scholars as to whether or not abrogation even exists within Islam.
So for John Bennett to come around talking about abrogation To just break it down into this very reductive sorta, oh, yeah. Later scans earlier, later is more violent. That’s what it is. That’s it’s violent. It’s way too simple.
Right. So the way that it kind of breaks down within the two worlds, some would say that the abrogation doesn’t actually apply to the Quran. So, do you wanna hear the verse of abrogation that is often cited? Yeah. We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that which we bring forth one better or similar to it.
So, that’s out of, Sura 2, 106. That’s the verse of abrogation. So, So, it sounds like it it’s talking about clarifying verses. Almost like what a lot of Christians would refer to as progressive revelation. Right.
Another another topic. But but what it would say is so some Muslims would say that nothing is canceled. Something could be clarified but if anything is ever cancelled it has nothing to do with the Quran. It could however be substituted to cancel something that might have been revealed in the previous text that were revealed because the Quran is clear that God revealed other messages through Moses for instance the law. So the Torah or the Torah revealed to Moses Muslims are supposed to adhere to.
Wow. And then you have the zeboor, the Psalms, which were revealed to the prophet Daoud David. Wow. And then you have the Injil or the gospel that was revealed to Esau Almasy Jesus. And so if there’s contradiction between those previously revealed scriptures in the Quran and the Quran should supersede or abrogate the previous scriptures.
But that’s not necessarily to say that there’s abrogation within the Quran itself. Right. Superseding itself. There you go. So some Muslims, they disagree about whether Quran even, abrogation exists in the Quran.
And then there are those that say, well, it can exist in the Quran. Quran and if there’s anything that contradicts, which I’ve yet to find a Muslim that has any that has ever said there’s any contradiction in the Quran. Yeah. I guess that’s probably not something that they would advertise or No. And so even if there was abrogation in the Quran, the the process of abrogating something is so strenuous.
I mean you have to have complete consensus of the scholars there. It has to apply to Islamic jurisprudence meaning that there’s a law. It can’t be just sort of this one verse that’s out there and doesn’t necessarily mean something. It needs to be maybe Muslims couldn’t eat this food but now they can eat this food very similar to Jesus in the New Testament law. But it needs to be a clear command from Mohammed substituting something.
There needs to be complete knowledge of the chronology of the revelation which sometimes in the Koran there’s not. And so this is a huge, huge issue in Islam. Not something to just be kinda spouted off as a political slogan and then expect Christians to walk away and say, well, there you go. It’s easy. I didn’t I didn’t realize it was so easy.
So what would you say that our response should be as educated listeners There you go. Of this kind of, political jargon and and reductionism? What do you think our response should be? Because I think ISIS really is probably something that we do need to talk about, continue to deal with in politics because it does affect our world. Right?
Mhmm. But at the same time, not to just kind of take everything hook, line, and sinker, with what these what these politicians are using to, get their get themselves elected, I guess. Yeah. I think, 1, it isn’t the job of a Muslim to determine the true nature of Islam. Isn’t the job of a non Muslim.
A non Muslim. Yeah. Right. Muslims are debating that amongst themselves and I don’t know that they’re ever gonna come to a complete solution. But I I don’t understand why the non Muslim world feels as though it has this obligation to kind of declare the true nature of Islam when they’ve not studied themselves.
You know, I think it had probably has to do with the fact that they need to figure out who are we shooting at. Yeah. I mean, is that bad? I mean, is it because we need to know clear cut enemies. That’s I think Vietnam was a a great example of that.
It was really, really hard when you couldn’t figure out who your enemy was. And so it was almost like they had to kind of invent this enemy to make them a little bit more clear. I don’t know, man. I just kinda feel like with Muslims, like, it’s so easy for Americans, for us as a public to just take all this stuff in just so that we can have an enemy. We wanna know who to blame.
That’s a dangerous game. Right. Dangerous game. And I think the one of the big problems is that when when Muslims attempt to speak out, I don’t know why we do this. And and for some reason, I see Christians doing it probably more than any other group.
We tell them, well, you don’t understand the true nature of your own religion. It’s a little presumptuous. Right? And and so it’s like Sam Harris when he was drawing his concentric circle saying, well, at the core are the radicals. Right.
And so it’s Like, that’s the foundation. That’s what, yeah, Islam is. That’s the truest Islam. Yep. So that that in my mind seems a bit bizarre.
What do you stand to gain by convincing a Muslim that he doesn’t understand his own religion and that he should really be radical? Yeah. Calling the the peace, peaceful ones, ones, nominal. Nominal as though they don’t understand. Yeah.
That that’s bizarre to me. So I I think here’s what here’s what we take away from this. One, it really doesn’t matter what you know about Islam. What you know about Islam and what you know about what the Quran says, just go ahead and assume that that doesn’t matter. What matters most to you is what does the Muslim sitting across from me believe about Islam?
What does he or she know about Islam? Right. That’s more important. Right. And that also leads us to relationship.
Yeah. And so same finding that out and same thing with Mohammed. I hear Christians, I mean, I think probably more Christians, non Muslims have written about Mohammed than Muslims. Wow. And so, we need to stop telling Muslims, hey.
Let me tell you about Mohammed. And start asking them. You know, what do you believe about Mohammed? And so, 2. And then with Mohammed, you need to stop criticizing Mohammed especially believers because you do not need to make Mohammed bad in order to make Jesus look good.
That doesn’t make any sense to me. Why would we compare the 2? Why do we bring the 2 up together? Let’s just talk about what we know, which is Jesus. Right.
And they’re interested. Absolutely. They’re interested because Jesus is all through the Quran more than 90 times mentioned in the Quran. Right. And so we need to talk about Jesus.
And, they probably look at us as okay. Well, they know about Esa. They know about Jesus. Yeah. So they’re probably interested to talk about that and, yeah, more so than we we think.
Yeah. So, and so not talking, telling Muslims what they believe, not telling Muslims about what they should believe about Islam or about Mohammed, talk about what we do know. When you see some sort of political rhetoric that gets forwarded to you in an email, I would say that here’s sort of the filtering mechanism that I encourage people to consider. Is what you’re reading causing you to love God more and to love Muslims more? And if if the answer is if the answer is yes, forward it on.
Go for it. Right. But it causes you to hate, to generalize, to To be fearful, to be whatever, you know. Big at your thoughts. If it’s if it’s causing you to be, fearful and hate or any of those sort of things, then and don’t don’t forward it.
You might even wanna email the guy or girl back and just say, you know, this sort of stuff is not helping us in what we’re called to do with Muslims. And in anything that causes a stumbling block for you, to do what you know you’re supposed to do as a believer, you should get rid of. Yeah. That because, I mean, that’s how we kinda live our faith too. I mean, things that cause us to stumble, not even just with Islam, right, but just as Christians, we try to eliminate that.
Yeah. Yeah. And we know that we’re called to love. We know that we’re called to share the gospel with Muslims. We know that we’re called to introduce them to Christ and ask them to follow Christ.
We know that. And so if there’s something else in our life that is causing us to stumble towards that and not not do that or stumble before we get to that, we should get rid of it. Right. This kinda leads us to our carpe diem of the day, which is Reza Aslan. Aslan.
And, so he kinda said something that, the reason why we gave him the carpe diem this, this week is because he does something that kinda helps us with our our vision. What we try to do here is to kind of enlighten people, to to help people see in a different perspective, help them to understand. And his quote is most people, the vast majority of people who have lived a lived experience of religion, bring their own political and social and economic and ideological perspectives and prejudices to the scriptures. It’s precisely why 2 people can read this exact same verse of scripture and come away with absolutely conflicting, opposing interpretations of it. This is so basic.
Why is it why is this hard for people to understand? And it’s kinda like what we were talking about with, trying to, you know, pigeonhole, Muslims saying, hey. This is what you believe when it’s not that simple. And I love that he just be able to he’s able to share that and and share it in just such a clear way, man. It’s the people.
And just like Trevor was saying, it’s the people that that make the difference. It’s not just, the the scripture by itself. It’s when people read it and put actions behind it that change everything. Yeah. One interesting thing about Reza Aslan is he’s got, well, that’ll be our our recommendation for resources.
His book, No God But God, which is an actual excellent resource. But he wrote another book here recently. I didn’t care for as much, but he was highly criticized for writing it because he is a Muslim writing about Jesus. Right. I mean, that was amazing to me that, it was a Fox News anchor that was basically saying that you should not be writing about Jesus because you don’t follow Jesus.
You’re a Muslim, and Muslims should not be writing about Jesus. And I’m thinking to myself, how many Christians have written about Mohammed? Is it is it because I don’t follow, a certain religion that I can’t have opinions or think about other religions and Reza Aslan is more than qualified to write a book, on religion and even Jesus. But he was criticized highly for writing his book on Jesus. One thing that I would have focused on is the fact that he thinks that he probably could affirm the death of Jesus on the cross.
And I’m thinking here we have a Muslim writing that the death of Jesus on the cross Right. Instead of focusing on that, we focus on the fact that, well, you shouldn’t be writing about Jesus because you’re Muslim. Yeah. Which is strange because Isah is or Jesus is in the Quran. Yes.
Yes. Definitely. And he he was referring the death of Jesus and we were kinda writing him off. No. No.
Explain that, like, in 10 seconds. Why that’s so, you know, such a big jump for a Muslim to to to believe? Well, you you have a verse in the Quran that says they boast that they killed the Christ, but they killed him not. It was only made to appear to be so. And so Muslims look at that and they say that Jesus wasn’t actually crucified, but somebody was, either crucified in his place or he really didn’t die on the cross.
Maybe he went to the grave still alive. So there’s even within the belief about Jesus’s death on the cross. There’s a variety of belief systems around that within Islam. But the majority would say that he didn’t die on the cross. Somebody else died in his place.
Right. So Reza Aslan say saying that aligns more, with what we believe. Right. And and and within historical Islam, within the oldest commentaries, the death of Jesus on the cross was certainly a possibility. And so he was simply saying that it’s a possibility that maybe he did die on the cross.
And, yeah, it I can’t get over the fact that when a Muslim was wanting to talk about Jesus, we told him he’s not allowed. Right. Alright. So why should we read No God But God? What is that about?
Well, that’s, Reza Islam’s sort of theology of Islam, looking at Islam, understanding Islam in the history in the context of history. He is a western scholar. He is Iranian by birth, lives in the United States. Actually, I don’t know if he lives in the United States. He may live in the UK, but he’s he’s got a degree in, sociology.
He’s got a a PhD, as well. But he’s he’s a, in my opinion, a refreshing sort of viewpoint on looking at Islam rather than just kinda having these books that are Islam is this or Islam is that. He kinda broadens it a little bit for us. Right. Okay.
Well, we still wanna hear your comments, especially on some of the questions that we talked about today because your, your input really kinda helps us guide the show where you’re interested, and we really thank you for listening. Yeah. And I’m kinda curious if you guys would write in, whatever states or whatever countries, you live in. I know that we have, listeners probably coming from a lot of different backgrounds. Are do you do you sense that Muslims are used as political pawns?
Are is Islam always in the discussion with, pawns? Are is Islam always in the discussion with, elections in in your part of the world or in your state? Just curious. Right. Love to hear from you.
So that’s it for this week. We’ll see you next week.
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Here starts the auto-generated transcription of Homegrown Terrorism and Ebola?:
Once again, Muslim terrorists A terrorist Islamic extremist. Extremist. These is not irrelevant. It is a warning. Welcome to the truth about Muslims podcast, the official podcast of the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media.
Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. Today’s episode is, homegrown terrorist, terrorist in the United States. Right. And our sponsors. Sponsors this week, Columbia International University.
Columbia educates people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ. And Zwemer Center. Zwemer Center, as always, educating you beyond the media. Wait, that’s us. That is us.
Us. We educate beyond the media, but what does the Zwemer Center do, Trevor? The Zwemer Center has been equipping the church since 1979 to understand Muslims. Before it was cool. Before it was cool.
Yeah. 35 years of educating people to understand Muslims so that we can reach them with the gospel. Gospel. Glory. Alright.
So, Howard, this week you, had an interesting encounter with an old friend. Right. Yeah. So this was really good because this kinda gives me the ability to kind of feel the pulse of the American populace. Yeah.
This is, this is a story that’s, you know, it’s anecdotal. It’s our own experience, but at the same time, I think it’s more true than we wish it was. Right. And, you know, like, so I’m just this normal guy, 37 years old, lives in America, grew up in the States. He’s a nazzy dresser.
Love mhmm. Thank you. Loves Jesus, you know, and just trying to, figure out how to how we fit, what we’re supposed to do, what’s our Christian response. And so I think there’s a lot of people that kinda fit that demographic, especially on social media. So I talked to this guy, and we, you know, caught up, had had a good time.
And he just asked me what my thoughts on ISIS was and, it’s amazing that that’s the conversation. You’re sitting down with an old friend and this is often the conversation with me, but I work in the context of, teaching, in a university setting about Islam, about Muslim Christian relations. But I think it’s not just because of what I do. I think everybody is talking about Islam. It’s like the weather.
Yeah. It’s it’s on What are your thoughts on ISIS? It’s exciting, and it’s in everyone’s head. And there’s a concern, so I think it’s kind of a triple threat. Yeah.
But, anyway, so I’m talking to this guy. Right. And I’m talking to this guy, and we just, you know, kinda talk. And he just shared something that his pastor had posted on Facebook. And I don’t remember all the details, but it just basically went where talking about support for arms against ISIS, which I get, you know, that that’s kind of a a thing, you know, where, you know, I think it’s pretty standard.
And, because, you know, it’s it’s a battle. It’s it’s there’s a lot of atrocities, that are happening. So, you know, they’re they’re wanting to make a stand. Well, anyway, so this guy, this friend of mine, he he post back because he just, you know, started to get close to this pastor. So he was kinda testing them out, feeling them out.
So he he made this, comment on there about how, you know, we need to share the gospel with with radical Muslims. But if that doesn’t work, it might need to be a bullet. And, of course, that brought me back to Bill Robertson. The beard. Right?
Yeah. That’s Doug Dynasty. Right. And so I was kind of, like, mesmerized because at the same time, like, I’m not condemning my friend or even the pastor. I’m just thinking to myself, this is what I think normal Christians probably are at.
Yeah. This is the conversation happening. I think while we’re making the Phil Robertson comment, the boom goes to the dynamite section of the show, I think it might actually be the the norm. Right. Because we were you know, like and I don’t know if this is just us, but I we were kinda making fun of it because it was, like, so, you know, ridiculous.
I think a little bit over the top, like, Phil Robinson’s gonna go and take his shotguns and shoot some people, you know? And I don’t even think that people think of it that way. I think people are like, yeah. He’s right. No.
I think a lot of people agreed with him, sadly. Right. So that was my friend, and and we had a great, you know, great time talking. We didn’t end up, like, arguing or anything like that, but I I it was really neat because I kinda shared my perspective, and I think that helped him a lot to kinda come away from, oh, yeah. I forgot we’re Christians.
Yeah. I think we easily forget because we’re inundated with media all the time telling us that, we should be afraid and be very afraid. Right. And then we’re also Americans, so we have guns and we can Americans. And we can fight.
And so, yeah, I mean, I get that. I get that. But the again, that Krishna response going above and beyond, you know, hating our enemies, but actually loving Yeah. Well, you know, that brings us to the the media this week. Lot of exciting stuff happening.
A lot going on. Where do you start? I wanna talk about Ebola. I don’t know why, but Ebola and Muslims, I I didn’t even know they go together, but they do. We’ll get to that later.
Yeah. Later in the show. Right. That’s gonna be a lot of fun. Yeah.
That’s our boom goes the dynamite section. Right. But but first of all, we gotta talk about the, there seems to be this epidemic. It’s coming. All these American teenagers are leaving the United States and joining ISIS.
And we say all these, very, very loosely, because it’s not really all these. But there is enough that it’s kind of being a little concerning, I think. It is. It’s bizarre. It’s concerning.
Yeah. Enough to make you uncomfortable. Right. Like, what is going on? So, yeah, tell us, man.
Well, we had the 1, this was a few weeks ago, the, Chicago teen. What was the name? Mohammed Khan. Right? From, I believe it was Pakistan who went to, was attempting to fly to Syria to join ISIS.
And so that was little bit of a concern. Here you have this young, young adult. I wouldn’t call him, you know, he’s a teenager because he’s, I believe he was 19 years old. I’m I’m not sure. Howard, see if you can pull that up, the news report.
But I believe he was a a young adult, really. And he He was arrested at at O’Hare Airport Right. From the FBI. And I believe it was his parents that turned him in finding out what was going on and being concerned. But, anyway, he was leaving the United States.
Yeah. He was he was 19. Mohammed Khan. Yep. Yeah.
How did he get turned in? I’m I’m gonna make sure I’m getting these all I I wanna make sure I have them all settled in my head because I know that’s the the the next story we’re gonna talk about. Their parents turned him in. But how did he get caught? Does it say there in the article how he was caught?
He warned, he he invited his family to join him in the 3 page letter Oh, that’s right. Which authorities found in his bedroom. Mhmm. And he told them he warned them not to tell anybody about his travel plans. Of course.
Right. Anyway You know, has I’m sure his family thought, you know, what is happening. This is crazy. No. Nobody wants to see their their their kid kinda go down this this path.
But you know what? Again, like we said in the show before, it’s, it’s a young age. You’re searching for identity, a place to belong. He, like the others that we’re gonna talk about, encountered some ISIS propaganda on the Internet and Right. Social media.
Apparently, they are very good on social media. I can’t figure out, how they’re getting away with this since social media is so public. But anyway, that’s where he kind of, encountered ISIS. Yeah. Like, we talked about that with the, the girl from Glasgow.
Right. Bedroom radical. That was the title of the article. Crying. That was the title of the article.
But, like, how compelling their their material must be. Yeah. Well, like I say, it’s not hard to convince a person to radicalize. You don’t need a Quran to do it. It’s more of a social, a sociological phenomenon and you use some propaganda.
You develop a couple conspiracy theories that have just enough truth in them to make you convinced that you have to go and join the fight against the west. So, anyway And then there was also that 19 year old American nurse? Yeah. She well, again Yeah. What happened there?
Apparently, ISIS these guys are winsome because this is the second one that has gone to, join ISIS as a bride. So she she also, met an ISIS fighter online. Do they have a do they have a dating website or something? I shouldn’t joke, but it does I mean, it sounds very bizarre. Right.
Because you’re hearing about these brides. I mean, they’re going for the bride. I’m yeah. To be a bride. So China she want, who was arrested after trying to fight with ISIS alongside extremist boyfriends she met online.
Yeah. So that again, this is a lot like the Glasgow, young woman who met an ISIS fighter online. She too was, was stopped. And But she was fighting. Like, as a woman, she was fighting, like, guns and fighting.
Right? And so that was interesting. That’s not exactly what I was thinking happens to a lot of these women that would go. I just assumed that they would be brides and stay at the camp or whatever they do. I mean Well, apparently, it’s okay, to join in the fight.
Maybe they’re taking after, one of my favorite historical characters actually, in Islam is, the young Aisha who was actually quite, the politician, quite the, exegete and also quite the, military leader. She was a young young woman but had great appeal to the masses and it’s really interesting because the radicals appeal to Ayesha as why women should be in the home and they shouldn’t have any rights. And then also the liberals appeal to Aisha as someone who had more rights than a lot of Muslim women have today. So she’s a really interesting character, but we’ll have to do a whole different podcast just on Ayesha. Right.
So there was also the 3 Denver girls. Yes. Teenagers again. Yeah. 22 of them were 15, and the oldest was 17.
They skipped school To join ISIS. Got on a plane to join ISIS and were, stopped in what was it? Germany? Yeah. In Frankfurt.
They had made it all the way to Frankfurt, and they had $2,000 cash. Yep. And they were turned in by their parents. Right. Because out what was going on.
Right. And, you know, don’t mess with mama. She found out what was going on and turned her daughters in. And so who knows how this is gonna go forward with a a trial because these are, you know, some of these are teenagers. Well, actually, I think I think they were they were taken home.
They were, met by the FBI. They were taken home, interviewed, or, I guess, interrogated and released. But that Because they’re because they’re, underage, I don’t know that we’ll find out exactly what will happen proceedings wise. I those those court documents, I think, have a a different, protocol. Right.
But what, you know, what was really interesting is that, another person, was on his way to join ISIS and got turned got caught and was brought back. And, he ended up actually killing or or it didn’t say if he was killing, but he he it was a soldier that had a man who had run over 2 soldiers. That’s right. Yeah. Yep.
And that was in Canada. Yes. And, yeah. So and then he he came and he they they ran off his car and he landed in a ditch. And when he came out, I guess he still continued to resist and he was shot dead.
Mhmm. But yeah. And that on top of the, news of the, the Canadian, terrorist act where someone came out Muslim and, killed one soldier at least, and, also had ties to wanting to join ISIS. So in some sense, I wouldn’t say this is an epidemic because we’re looking at a handful of people, but it’s enough to be concerning. Well, the the thing that I find really, really interesting is that it’s happening like, this was, like, within a couple of weeks.
All of these were, like, within a couple of weeks from each other. And so it wasn’t like it was, you know, like, once a year or twice a year, but it just seemed like it was just all of a sudden the the media was inundated with all of these stories of this random people that weren’t really, to be honest, tied with ISIS in a in a way that was being supported by an ISIS group. You know, it they were just guys that converted to Islam, maybe through propaganda online like we were talking about, and then all of a sudden decided to act. Right. No.
You have you have a history of, it’s a small history, I guess you could call it history, of, of Americans engaging in terrorist activity. You know, you have Anwar Al Aulaqi who was killed by a US drone strike in Yemen. He was an American citizen, was teaching at a mosque in Virginia. You have, Naidal Hassan who was, who was responsible for killing people at Fort Hood. You have Faisal, Shahzad, Pashtun American, that was attempted to, blow up the, New York Times Square.
And, you have, of course, the most recent Boston bombings of the the Sarnoff brothers who also, were had connections with Al Qaeda possibly in Dagestan. So it’s, you know, you have all of these things happening, but they were pretty spread out. This is this is the time where it seems like a lot of things happened in the last few weeks. So it is interesting, but we have to take it in in context. And I think that’s what we wanna do here today.
We wanna talk a little bit about the context of this because what you don’t wanna do is go home and say, hey, there’s this huge problem. We have, you know, all of these teenagers joining ISIS and wanting to, commit acts of terror on our own soil. Right. Something that you and I had to look up, just to kinda be clear because we talk we’re talking about terrorism a lot. But, so we looked up the definition, the FBI’s definition.
It defines terrorism as the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof in furtherance of political or social objectives. So these homegrown guys Right. Would you And gals. And gals, would you, you know, like, for the guy that, the the parliament shooting. Right?
He wasn’t a part of, you know, a terrorist group. I I think in his mind he was, and I think that does matter. I think I think in his perception, in his own imagination, he was doing this on behalf of ISIS. I think that that does have some some value to look at. Whether or not ISIS will claim him or it’s kinda they seem like a pretty open group.
But Anybody that’s willing to commit atrocities Yeah. I guess. I mean, just come on in. But I yeah. You’re right.
I don’t They didn’t have any support necessarily. Wasn’t necessarily, a part of ISIS, but I think in his own mind, he was and that and that does matter. But I think the bigger question, for me, Howard, is the whole, I I think it was originally. I couldn’t trace back the original person. I’ve heard this statistic thrown around a lot and that is that, 10% of the Muslim world, are radicalized.
And I’ve even heard people say, well, 10% of 10% of Muslims are terrorists. Right. And, you know, Sam Harris, Bill Maher, that that whole debate thing, they had thrown around numbers like that, the core of, of Islam Right. In in being extremists and terrorists and such. And that was interesting.
I I I would like to to see more of that or to to find out where they’re kinda getting that stuff from too. Well, I look back. I did find, where Glenn Beck a few years back had said 10% of Muslims are terrorists. Okay. And what were what what was that from?
Well, I you know, you can just throw a a stat oh, you mean what what show was it on? It was on his radio show. Where did Glenn where did Glenn Beck get that? I have no idea. Couldn’t figure it out.
Oh, okay. Farid Zachariah, what is it? Zachariah? Farid Zachariah on I think it’s CNN. I can’t remember the the broadcast that he works for.
But he, he kinda called him out on it and, did the math and said, so what you’re really saying is that we have a 160 1,000,000 terrorists walking around. That would be 10% of the 1,600,000,000 Muslims in the world. Right. So according to Beck, we have a 160,000,000 terrorists. And just to kinda give you context, I mean, the US is 3 around 300,000,000.
So half the population of the US are terrorists. Wow. And if you think about in the United States, depending on whose statistics you read, I like, vetted research organizations like Pew. I’ll go with their statistics. We’re looking at 3,500,000 Muslims in the United States.
Okay. 3,500,000 Muslims, not terrorists. Muslims. Okay. Go for it.
I guess it depends who you ask. But Right. Yeah. No. I would say 3,500,000 Muslims, in the United States.
And so if you were to, argue that 10% of those folks were were terrorists, then, yeah, I could understand the mass hysteria about, Muslim terrorists because it would be an astronomical number. But the bottom line is what we have is a handful of Americans engaging in these activities. A handful. Okay. So give me some numbers.
Well, we just went over the ones from the the last, week, and then we talked about a couple others that have happened in the last few years. But, I mean, let’s let’s assume I’m gonna go big here and say, let’s say 35. Let’s say we have 35 people that have engaged in terrorist activity from the United States that are Muslim. What would that be? Point0001 percent Of Muslims.
In America. That are terrorist. Of the 3.5000000 Muslims, it would be the point 00001%. Wow. And if we were just to look at this idea of teenagers leaving and engaging and joining ISIS, I mean, that is obviously concerning especially for the parents.
No doubt about it. But let’s put it in context. You know, we have 3 teenage girls and, what was the other American? The teenage boy out of Chicago. So we have 4.
Right. So far, I’m not saying there won’t be more, but we have 4. Right. That kinda reminded me of the, there was this chart I saw on Facebook that kinda cracked me up, but it was, like, about the Ebola outbreak in the US. I love the the term even outbreak.
Right. It was it was, like, 1, at the time, it was, like, one person. And, it it was just they basically drew these little, you know, stick figures, and there was, like, you know, 300,000,000 of them. And so you just had to continually scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll. I mean, like, it was literally, like, maybe, like, minutes and minutes of, like, scrolling till the finally you got to the one red stick figure.
It’s like, that’s that’s what’s really going on. That’s the outbreak. Yeah. And so you have here with, with these these these terrorists, so called terrorists in the United States, if it is 35 out of 300 and some 1000000 people and out of 30, what did you say? 30 33,500,000.
Now that that’s a and that’s a conservative statistic. Most of the people that are trying to convince everyone that there’s, terrorists possibly living next door to you, they’re using statistics of like 7000000, 9000000 Muslims living in America. Even those statistics are inflated. And I mean, realistically, we’ve had 4 people, teenagers, right, be, convinced online that they should be a part of ISIS. Now that’s concerning those 4 and that could easily become more.
But to make it out to be this huge issue of homegrown terrorism, I think, is a bit of a stretch. Right. We kind of came into this story because, the the same friend that I had talked to about ISIS and the bullet and sharing the gospel. And he had kind of mentioned that, you know, because I kinda explained how much the FBI really does know. I mean, like, you know, like, we kinda try to laugh at our government and and say they’re bumbling, you know.
But but the fact of the matter is there’s a lot of people on Homeland Security, that are looking at these guys that are terrorist threats. And so that led us in our conversation to the next, thought, which is, you know, what about the guys that aren’t on terrorist watch list that are just under the radar and they convert to Islam, kinda like what we’re seeing in these stories that we brought up, and then show up and do some crazy, you know, attack. That’d be like the guy in the in the I think what is it? A chicken factory. He was fired and went back and decapitated a woman in Oklahoma.
Right. That’s a good example there. So what do you do with that? Are we gonna see more of of that going on? And I think, you know, it’s really hard because, Howard, we’re in the first time, I think this generation is seeing acts of violence all over the world, all happening at once and it’s really easy to believe that we are, like, the wheels are just coming off.
So you’re saying that because, you know, in the United States, we’re so sheltered from that kind of thing? No. No. No. No.
I’m saying that we are way overexposed to that sort of thing. Oh, right. Because we’re able to see basically the entire world and everything that’s happening all at once because of media, because There you go. Of Internet, because of globalization. So, I think if you were to just try this, if you’re listening try this, of course if you try it, you’re listening.
Find somebody and just ask them. If you were to say, society today, global society is, 10 being the most violent society the world’s ever seen, 10 being the most violent society history’s ever seen, and one being the most peaceful society history has ever seen, what do you think it is? I I have a feeling that most people are gonna say, oh man, we’re up there 8, 9, maybe 10. This I mean, the world is coming off. The the wheels are coming off.
The world is falling apart. Everything is in chaos. There’s death. There’s murder everywhere. We’ve got ISIS.
We’ve got Al Qaeda, we’ve got Hezbollah, we’ve got Hamas, we’ve got, Boko Haram, we’ve got all of these groups and oh my goodness and it’s nonsense. Yeah, I I don’t know if we even It it almost becomes like this subliminal thing because you know I to be honest with you when watch Fox News or CNN, I kinda get a headache. Because, like, there’s so much information coming, and it’s all terrorizing as far as their their, their their tempo and the the way they’re speaking. It’s always urgent and and I feel like Howard’s being terrorized by the news. And it’s always, like, so worrisome.
And and and then and when it’s just even if if it’s just about a politics between candidates, there’s always this shouting and yelling, and I’m just like, I I can’t handle this. This is way too much. So yeah, I mean, I get what you’re saying. I think people can oftentimes when they it’s you know, especially when they watch the news. And then, of course, the news even the newspapers, like, do people read those anymore?
But the the, like, the headlines, these gigantic Ebola, you know, outbreak in the US and yeah. I mean, I I see what you’re saying. I think, yeah, I would agree probably if this. But I’m sure there are some of you out there thinking, what do you mean nonsense? It’s not nonsense.
The world is falling apart. The the wheels are coming off. Those are real things. And and you’re right. They are real things.
There are serious threats around the globe. But let’s take it in the context of global history. I think a lot of I was just gonna say Rome. Rome. Syria.
Not just Rome. Let’s let’s let’s consider, pre modern society. Let’s consider tribal societies Right. Where, most, archaeologists, most, anthropologists would say that the the chances of you dying at the hands of a violent death by by another man are, like, 15%. And you might think well that’s not that high.
That’s that’s extremely high especially when you consider your chances today of dying at the hands of another man. I’m talking globally not just you as an American, globally the chances of a human dying at the hands of another human are less than 1%. That’s encouraging. It’s way encouraging and it should give us a context for how we watch these things and and and how we see. Is the world really coming apart at the seams?
Are the wheels really coming off? Is it as bad as we actually, say that it is or believe that it is? And I say no. Right. And, you know, I I I tend to feel like where we’re going at with with whenever we bring up media or anything that’s kind of inflammatory.
It’s the idea that we’re not interested in fueling that panic because I don’t think that’s actually good for anybody, you know. And, just the idea. Right? I mean No. Anything that anything that starts with fear, I would say, okay, take a step back, ask yourself, what am I afraid of?
Do I have all of the facts? Have I really considered legitimate? Right? Let me let me look at it, as as a whole, not just this one incident and then try to make an entire you know what it is? I’ve I’ve got it.
I was, Bring bring the noise. I don’t know what to call it. Oh. No. No.
Okay. Wait for it. Chicken little history. Or The sky is falling. The sky is falling.
Chicken little history. Like, we we actually believe everything is falling apart right before our very eyes. And you know what? It’s because we, as as probably the first generation, can see everywhere the world is falling apart right before our very eyes. Right.
We have eyes everywhere. The reality is this is probably, I’m saying probably, I don’t wanna say it is even though I think it probably is, I think this is probably the most at peace the world has ever been. Right. That’s insane to think about because we don’t feel that way. Right.
Did you did you pull up some, like, statistic on on how crime is just continually dropping Yeah. In the US. Crime is on its way down and globally, not just in the US. Now, obviously, if you’re living in Syria, it certainly doesn’t feel that way. And because of how much we watch the news, it sometimes feels like we’re living in Syria.
If you’re living in Darfur, it doesn’t feel that way. If you’re living in say the Congo, it doesn’t feel that way. But you got to have the context of global history. We see decapitations, we see, people being tortured and we’re appalled But go back a few 100 years. Go back a 1000 years, and this was entertainment.
Right. And so there’s gather around the guillotine as someone’s being beheaded. Yeah. And so we have to we have to completely look at it in the context of global history and say, hey. You know, let’s not assume that our world is the world.
Right. Right? There was a world before. You know, there’s a history. God has been at work from the very beginning, and we don’t need to be these sort of chicken little historians or chicken little theologians that walk around thinking the world is falling apart, especially if it isn’t.
Right. And I think the danger is the reactionism, the reactional, mindset where everybody and this reminded me of 911 when George Bush, had basically declared war, in response because they felt like something had to be done. They didn’t have the facts. They didn’t have everything together, but something had to be done. And that’s very reactionary.
That I I really believe that that gives power to the others that have done that to us. So, like, you have ISIS attacking us. Right? So our natural response is to attack them. It it kind of forces our hand when we are reactionary rather than taking things aside and saying, okay.
How do we respond? How do we educate our people? How do we use rational thinking, logic? How do we bring all of these things in to make the best decision for the long term? Because, really, what happened to Iraq after we invaded?
Now that we’ve let it go and, you know, we’ve left, you know, like, ISIS comes in. It’s like this vacuum. Right. Exactly. And so has it been the best decisions have we been making?
And I’m not saying that we need to get into politics on this show. That’s not what we’re talking about. But just the idea that we need to be rational, that we need to be at peace. We need to have common sense. That we need to make good decisions, not reactionary decisions, but good decisions on their own.
I’ll I’ll give you an example of reactionary, and that’s Anders Breivik, right, in Norway. Mhmm. 77 77 people killed in a single day Wow. Trying to protect Norway from Islamization. That’s not what we want.
And he’s doing all of this according to Anders Breivik in the name of Jesus. That’s so disturbing. Right. It’s a new crusade. You know, and I I think that we have to be so careful to, make sure that we don’t even for a second begin to think in those terms.
That is a scary thought that this man believed wholeheartedly that he was, working out the will of God through through the death of these, teenagers. 77 teenagers. Now what’s what’s just to give it context, that’s way more people, like, since 911. We think about how many people have died at the hands of Islamic extremists. It isn’t 77.
Since 911, I mean, we’re, I don’t even know the numbers off the hand, but I know it’s not 77. We’ve got, a couple of Fort Hood. What was the the Fort Hood numbers? I can’t I don’t have exact I think it was 13. 13 killed.
That’s right. 13.13 killed at Fort Hood. Faisal Shahazad, actually, his bomb didn’t even go off. Man, I’m just trying to think of all the the terrorist activity but it’s a it’s a handful, really. And when we look at the statistics, I think we’ll be surprised that, terrorist activity is actually on its way down in the United States.
It kinda had a little bit of a spike after 911 and then it started to decline. And so on average, it’s less than 20, less than 20 people are arrested and we’ll put all the sources for this. This is out of a research project that was done at Duke University. Less than 20 people are arrested on average for links with terrorism. And I don’t even mean they’re committing terrorist acts for links with terrorism, less than 20 per year.
Wow. That doesn’t seem like that way on the media. No. Because we think, well, 10% of Muslims are terrorists, which so bizarre that we just kinda take that hook, line, and sinker. We’ve got, you know, almost 10,000,000 in the United States also not true but we take it hook line and sinker and therefore, man, they’re everywhere.
And so you can imagine. I get it. I get it why people walk around so afraid, but I’m telling you as we look at the media, yes, there was 4 people this week, that were going to engage in terrorist acts. They are angry. They are looking for identity and they did find a place to fit in an Islamic terrorist group but that is 0.000.
Actually, gotta add a 5th 0, 1 percent of the Muslim population. Right. And you had said something that we were talking about before the show about, them finding a place and how compelling that was. And we’ve talked about this on the earlier show, but just basically, what do you think that is such a draw, I guess, for them to because I mean, because really, you’re thinking how if you just think about it, how much of a sacrifice it is to leave your family. Right, to go to a brand new place, to join up with people you don’t really even know, and to fight to lay down your life on, you know, on their beliefs.
So Well, I mean, a lot of these these, especially the teenagers, they’re angry, but that doesn’t make you a terrorist. I mean, almost all Howard, you work with a lot of youth. A lot of teenagers are angry. Right. And they’re looking for a way to To fit, a place to belong, a place to separate from I’m no longer my parents’ kid.
I wanna be my own person. And so And they wanna and they wanna believe in something. I think that’s this generation. Something to believe in. They wanna believe in something that’s beyond themselves.
Because I think they do find that, at least the more, thinking or a more aware or self aware these students are, they’re finding that the world is offering really shallow things, I think. You know, like, it’s no longer the world of Britney Spears and and pop culture and, you know, like even it’s it’s even hipster to be aware of social issues and what’s going on in in the world. So, you know, like, I I can see this this shift with with young people. But at the same time, I I, you know, I we’re seeing that it’s leading to some extremism, you know. Not not only that, but I think we’re actually perpetuating the problem How so?
With media, with with, these sort of overarching sweeping generalized statements about Muslims and immigrants. Right. They simplify it to the point where it’s like, this is wrong. This is right. And it’s not really this robust, you know, thought.
It’s really it’s much more complicated than than what we portray it as. But the media just kind of makes these sweeping statements that That that’s right. And we know, researchers have, they’ve looked at sort of the the psychological things that go on with, an immigrant and especially when their, their ethnic identity or their religious identity has any kind of hostility towards it whether it’s real or perceived and I would say in this case, it’s quite real. Right. So people that have a real or perceived hostility from the host society, the place where they’ve immigrated about their ethnicity or even their religion, they start to really either they they take one of 2 routes.
1, they completely deny or downplay, their own ethnic or religious identity Right. So that they can kinda fit. Right. They they become enculturated. That’s their goal.
Right. And then you have the other guys that are, they might actually begin to assert pride in their cultural group. They might, assert pride in their, religious identity as a way of dealing with this, hostility. Right. So They they actually become more Muslim than they were before they got here.
They become more, you know, whether it’s a national identity, Pakistani or more of an ethnic identity whether it’s Pashtun or some other ethnic group. So they become a a more of what they were before they even arrived to the United States. Right. So they they consciously separate themselves from the host country. Right.
They have no no idea or or desire to, become like everyone else. And so what ends up happening, the pressure that they feel from the host society according to this particular research, document, it says that the pressure to assimilate and give up one sense of ethnicity, it may actually result in anger, depression, and in some cases violence. There’s the word. So it doesn’t matter if you’re, Hispanic immigrant, a South Asian immigrant, a Korean immigrant, does not matter. If you have that overwhelming sense of a hostility or a perceived hostility, it puts you into a really tough spot and I think that we perpetuate this by, forcing Muslims to kinda choose sides.
Like, hey, you’re Muslim. That means this. And it’s oversimplified and it actually ends up creating a bigger problem. The tough thing is it’s a societal thing, though. Right?
I mean, we have, as a people, we have responsibilities. And we’ve, I think, dropped the ball kinda like, when, last week when we’re talking about Dave Cash and when he was sharing about how Americans have kinda lost that deep sense of hospitality. You know, that’s a societal thing. And so here, you know, we’re treating, Muslim immigrants a certain way. Right?
Out of fear, out of reactionism. It kinda reminds me of the Japanese concentration, camps in the US during World War 2, after Pearl Harbor. Mhmm. You know, it became this very much of your Japanese, you know, your anti American, when lot of these Japanese have just grown up, in the US were born and, you know, maybe a few generations. And so you have you have Muslims that kinda fallen that fit into that bill or or or have a real desire to connect with American values and or consider themselves Americans or are Americans themselves, but are still being, you know, judged and I I mean harassed.
Harassed. Yeah. I mean, that’s the bottom line. If it’s it’s if you oh, I saw I I’ve experienced this myself with, Muslim friends that I have where I’ve thought, you know what? I’m going to your school and I’m gonna talk to your teacher because that’s not right.
Where they have experienced, com you know, poor treatment because they’re Muslim, even just joking. And one one teacher even joked to a young Muslim girl that, my wife is really good friends with, she is 16 at the time, joked, with her on the death of Bin Laden and she thought, I don’t even know anything about Bin Laden. I don’t know why he’s joking with me about this stuff. And I thought, well, there you go. That’s a good way to, really kinda perpetuate a problem of young teenagers wanting to fit somewhere.
There she is trying to fit in an American high school and here is a teacher actually making jokes, cracking jokes about her and Bin Laden. That, in my mind, just doesn’t make any sense. Horrifying. Yeah. It happens.
That’s horrifying. And and I feel like it happens way more than than anyone ever would think about. I I, you know, I understand, like, Bill Maher and those guys, you know, that are, chomping at the bid and then Ben Affleck saying, you know, like, you know, these liberals are just all for, or I mean, Bill Maher saying the liberals are too soft on Muslims. But I I don’t think that this kind of prejudice or prejudice is is coming to the forefront. I don’t think people realize how difficult it is, to be a Muslim in our country that have no association with terrorism, that have no desire.
They just wanna eat sandwiches. There you go. Right? But at the same time, is is being pushed in this boat. And I can see how a 16 year old kid who’s who you know, you remember what it was like being 16.
There’s a lot of term it’s a tumultuous time where you’re trying to figure out who you are, what it is to be a man, who it is, what what it is that you believe, and how you’re gonna live your life, and the fears and the hopes. And then all of a sudden you get hit by ISIS propaganda. Then all of a sudden you’re a bride or you’re a soldier that’s trying to get somehow to Syria or to Iraq to to help and fight because that’s the only place that you’ve actually felt like you belonged and could do something bigger than yourself. Because you’re jaded. You’ve you’ve lost hope and It’s and I think, you know, for us, we have to realize that, Muslims, they’re just people.
They have the same heart as you and I. They’re just people who happen to be Muslim. We have to stop viewing them through, this sort of religious identity that their religion is everything about them. That’s way oversimplified. We need to actually look at them as people who happen to be Muslim and allow them to define themselves.
Right. Yeah. There there was a recent, it’s not too recent anymore. I think it was, 2011 where they did a, survey of Muslim Americans and I found this fascinating because recent polls are saying that, the amount of Americans that are angry with the US government, they’re, like, at an all time high. I mean, republican, democrat, it’s just at an all time high.
In 2011, it was high as well. But nowadays, it’s it’s at the highest that it’s been in a while. But this particular, survey, Muslims that were, angry with the US government, angry with the US government was lower than the general public. What? Yeah.
The general public was more angry with the US government than the Muslims were that are living in the United States. The satisfaction of Muslims living in the United States where they say that they are, satisfied with the way things are going in the United States, 56 percent and the satisfaction of the general public was 23%. So if we’re gonna just look at, and base it because I think, he the early Glenn Beck was making his comments about terrorism saying, well, those who are angry with the government. According to recent polls, we got a lot more terrorists than he realizes. Right.
They’re just not Muslim. Right. That’s a whole another problem. Truth about Americans. Just kidding.
No. It’s it is it’s something to consider though because I think most Muslims are incredibly satisfied with their life here in the United States. They feel like they’re really blessed to be here, and they’re happy, and they feel like the government that they have here is, a very good government. And it’s a lot of it’s because of where they’ve come from. Right.
They’ve experienced the the horse. Right? What would be awesome though is if they experienced how we as Americans can be. You know, I think I hands down. I think American America is one of the most generous countries ever.
Any any situation happens. If you look at Haiti, where tens and tens tens of thousands 100 of thousands of volunteers come and help over the course of the the next years. You know, Katrina, hurricane Katrina, that is, you know, and and all of the the any kind of thing that has happened, America just jumps in and helps, and foreign aid and and on and on as the general population of the people. But we have to stop thinking in terms of, just bunching these people together and making them all out to be the same. America has this been this amazing melting pot of people where we be we’re becoming more and more multicultural.
We can’t stand together if we are continually fighting amongst ourselves. We learned that from Islam, actually, from monks Muslims. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
On on a on a more positive note, in that same survey, 48% of Muslims said that they felt like they had a friendly response from Americans since they have come here as immigrants. So that was that was good. That’s so awesome. Let’s let’s hope that the Christian church, it’s much much higher than that. But just let me run through a couple of these stats before we go to our next section.
Okay. You guys will find this really interesting. What percentage of Muslims recycle? What? 75% as opposed to other Americans 76%.
Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. No.
This is really in the survey. Okay. Alright. Percentage of TV watchers. Aaron?
50%. 58%. The average Americans, 62%. I didn’t know it was that low. Yeah.
I would have thought higher. I guess it’s Internet TV. It’s changed everything. Regular use of social Alright. Here we go.
Regular use of social networking. Let’s go with the Muslim population, Howard. 85. 57%. Oh, man.
Now this is a little older though. 2011. So I’m assuming it’s grown. And, Americans 44%. What?
Yeah. Alright. Regularly watch pro sports. 25%. 48% and Americans 47.
They’re way more into the NFL than we are. 1%. Wait. How do you know it’s the NFL? I’m sorry.
I used the word they. They they give us pro sports. You know, like It’s the only pro sport on in America. I mean, really. Because I know Koreans, like, we are wild about archery.
You saw that in Olympics. Oh my goodness. Alright. Display the American flag. Oh.
What percentage of Muslims display the American flag? I’m gonna say 75%. 44%. Okay. That’s that’s pretty weird.
Percentage of Americans that display the flag. This is a trick, isn’t it? No. 59%. Oh.
What does that mean, display, like, on their front porch? I think so. I maybe a bumper sticker would count. I don’t know. Oh, bumper sticker.
Clothes. I I think it’s probably I’d have to look at the the question the way it was worded. Pew is really good about giving their their questionnaires and how they ask. Alright. And so our final one.
Are you ready? Percentage of Muslims that regularly play video games. 25%. 18%. Oh.
And the general American public, 19%. Are you serious? Gamers only 19%? 19%. I They’re all in my youth group.
I’m pretty sure. You’re Asian. All 19%. Those of you that didn’t know, Howard is Asian. I am Asian.
Can’t you hear it in my voice? So we’ve got 18 19 percent. And the point is, they’re not so different. Come on, people. They’re just they’re people that happen to be Muslim and we have to stop defining everything they do based on their religion.
And you can learn a lot from just asking people about themselves. So, anyway, I thought that that, survey was really really informative. And fun. And fun. And fun.
Alright. So our next segment is boom goes the dynamite. Boom goes the dynamite. And, the person that gets that this week is representative Joe Wilson. Tell us what he said, Trevor.
South Carolina. Representative Joe Wilson. You didn’t have to say that because we’re from South Carolina, but now okay. Now everyone knows. No.
They know. I mean, they’re gonna look it up. I mean, I don’t the exact quote, I don’t have it in front of me. How do you have an go with the go with the exact quote. Do you want me to do it with a southern accent?
Do you have a good southern accent? Of course, I do. Tell you what. I am Asian, but I was grown in I was raised in the south. That’s that’s that’s not quite southern.
With the southern, you got especially if you’re in politics, you gotta have, like, little bit of my lashes falling out of your mouth. Right. That’s the old country. Old Southern. Yeah.
Southern. Actually, I am from the South, but I don’t have a Southern Florida. Florida. That’s not the south. That’s the south.
I’m from the Panhandle. No. No. No. No.
That’s New Jersey. Panhandle. That’s New South. That’s New Jersey imported down to the south. Alright.
Give it to us. What does he have? Give us the boom goes the dynamite. Alright. So basically, here it is.
Okay. Well, part of their creed, they’re talking about ISIS. No. No. He’s talking about Hamas.
Oh, Hamas. You’re right. Thank you. Would be to bring persons who have Ebola into our country. So, he he believes that part of their terrorist attack would be to take people that are infected with Ebola and send them through Mexico into our nation.
He he actually this is, in my mind, the ultimate boom goes the dynamite because it’s the trifecta. He brings up Hamas. So he’s talking about Hamas and Israel. Right. So he’s got Israel in there.
He’s talking about Muslims because Hamas is a Muslim, group. 2. And then he brings up oh, man. He’s got 4. Brings up Ebola, which is, like, number 4 or 3 there.
And then with number 4, he brings up the border. Immigration. Immigration. This is the ultimate sort of, quad I don’t know what you would call that. It’s the trifecta plus 1.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. So he’s talking about, Hamas going over and, I guess, volunteering without, the hazmat suits and then willingly infecting themselves. It just sounds I I get where he’s coming from.
He’s saying that they’re willing to die and this and that, but I think he’s really, honestly, I I think he maybe he forgot the name of the group that he was gonna say and he just threw out one that came to his mind, Hamas. Because Hamas is primarily Palestinian and they’re fighting for land in Israel. I’m not so sure. They’re not focused. Yeah.
So they got their own thing going on. But then, infecting themselves with Ebola, coming through the south through, Mexico. Man, he kinda hit on everything there and so it was, an ultimate really just political, move. Right. He drank the Kool Aid of the media.
So Or as, Shepherd says, Shepherd Smith. Yeah. We almost forgot about that. No. Because he’s our, seize the day, our hard copy DM award.
But, he I love that he has this voice reason, and he calls out that kind of behavior from the media. Tell us tell us kinda give us a brief overview of what He calls it hysterical voices on the media. Because irresponsible. Yeah. Irresponsible reporting hysterical voices essentially says, I’ll just be summarizing here, but you need to we’ll put the video in the show notes and you can go and watch it yourself.
But what he says is, hey. There’s an election coming up. Everybody has an agenda here. And so the the, party that’s in power has to let you know that they’re protecting you. The party that’s not in power has to show you how the party in power is not protecting you.
And Ebola has become the political pawn of the day and just calls everybody out. I was shocked. Right. He did a great job too. He was real real straight, and he was just basically saying, hey, this is not what it seems.
Yeah. He said there’s no nonsense here. There is no Ebola outbreak, and he goes through and gives the facts about Ebola, tells everybody to calm down, don’t be hysterical, don’t pay attention to the hysterical voices on the media, and, I was really encouraged by that. Yeah. And then and then you got Joe Wilson.
Right. He didn’t get the memo. It’s everybody. It’s everything. We’re we’re all gonna die.
I mean, like, you know Mass hysteria. Right. And, and he’s he represents South Carolina. I’m sorry. Well South Carolina.
Yeah. Well, anyway, it was, the reason he gets the and I’m not saying that we agree or disagree with anybody that we put on on the show for the carpet DM award or the boom goes to the dynamite. Maybe it’s just a bad moment for one person or a really good moment for another person. I don’t know what Shepherd Smith has said in the past about Islam. I’m sure he’s had.
He may be a boom goes to dynamite moment here later in the show. I don’t know. We do not support everything he says. Right. But that moment, we were encouraged.
By speaking out against the the mass hysteria and using Ebola as a pawn in a political chess match. Right. And we kinda tried to do that on the show too. You know, of course, our tagline, you know, we wanna educate people beyond the media. We don’t want them just to swallow it, you know, wholesale.
And so, it was kind of neat to hear him talk about Ebola that way. And of course with our boom goes the dynamite, you know, it kind of just works perfectly because, normally we really wouldn’t probably talk about Ebola that much unless that did happen. Whatever Joe Wilson said did happen. I’m not saying it’s going to nor do I think it’s likely, but we wouldn’t talk about Ebola and just kinda give us an opportunity to do that. Well, you know, we could have because there are some Muslims out there that are condemning Ebola because they said they felt like everybody’s They were gonna get blamed for Ebola.
So there was, like, a Muslim group. It was kind of like a joke. They came out and said, we better condemn Ebola before we get accused of not speaking out against Ebola. So Right. Anyway That’s awesome.
But yeah. So let’s go with our, our resource of the week. I wanna talk to you guys about a, a resource of the week. I wanna talk to you guys about a, a book that came out, it was 2011, and this was kinda what got me thinking about the the world in light of history, not just looking at what’s happening in the media and assuming that the wheels are coming off. So, Steven Pinker, psychologist professor at Harvard has, written a book, The Better Angels of Our Nature, Why Violence Has Declined.
Now I’m gonna just say right off the bat, obviously, I don’t agree with everything Steven Pinker has to say. He, he’s not a believer. He’s pretty critical of, Christian beliefs in the bible and talks about the violence of the bible, I think in a very sort of, on a very biased way. But his statistics regarding, violence in culture and violence in light of, the 21st century is phenomenal and very interesting and you have to consider what he’s saying and say, maybe maybe the world isn’t as bad as, as I thought it was. That’s I’ve never even heard of this book.
What did you hear about this guy? Well, he has a TED Talk as well. Oh. Those those of you that don’t like to read, that’s me. Right.
And he’s working on his PhD right now. That’s why it’s gonna take a long time to finish. So But TED Talks, yeah, you’re right. That’s a great alternative for reading. Go.
You know, would it be wrong if I did my whole PhD on TED Talk videos? Would it be it depends on the school. I don’t know if I’d graduate. I’d have to talk to my advisor about that. But anyway, he has a TED Talk.
Steven Pinker. He’s also been on NPR a few times. He’s got a few A 2 time Pulitzer prize winner. Oh, finalist. I’m sorry.
Final Yeah. And, you know, he’s from Harvard, so I think he’s been vetted. Right. And he has awesome hair. He does he does large, curly, frolish locks or locks of hair.
But, anyway, check out the TED Talk. Check out his book if you, if you have time. I think it will be encouraging because the bottom line, as believers, we should be the first and foremost people to recognize when things are not bad. We should be looking for opportunities to see where God is moving. We should be looking for opportunities to see, the image of God in humanity and I fear that we have lost that.
Yeah, that’s tough. I don’t know. I just feel like in the media. It’s it’s really hard to to keep that face, so I think what you’re right. I think we have to be extremely intentional.
You know, without losing hope without, because I don’t I don’t think that, Christ brought left us on earth at this time to, to to make people scared, but to actually be bringers of hope. Right? Absolutely. And that’s kind of different than what we’ve, we’ve been known as as Christians over the time of history. Yeah.
I I’m trying to think of the exact quote that CS Lewis, talks about. It’s in mere Christianity, but he says, Here it is. So, so let’s suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not quite be true or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one’s first feeling? Thank god Even they aren’t quite as bad as that.
Or is it a feeling of disappointment and even determination to cling to the first story for sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies are as bad as possible. And I think that that concerns me. And I think, c s Lewis, if you saw what we were doing today and the way that we were viewing the world and the way that we were looking at Muslims, I think that this quote would ring true true today more than than ever before. And and think about the context of when mere Christianity is coming out and these radio broadcast during the war. And what he goes on to say is, if the second is true, in other words, if you think, you’re disappointed that you found out your enemies aren’t as wicked as you thought they were.
If the second, then it is. I am afraid the first you are in the first step of a process which if followed to the end will make us into devils. You see, one is the beginning to wish that black was a little blacker. If we give that wish its head, later we shall wish to see gray as black And then to see white itself as black. Finally, we shall insist on seeing everything.
God and our friends and ourselves included as bad and not be able to stop doing it. We shall be fixed forever in a universe of pure hatred. Wow. That’s that’s that speaks a lot to, I think, where we are today. We need to be careful.
We need to be, we need to be the kind of people that when somebody says, look, the world is falling apart at the seams. The wheels are coming off. We need to be the people that say, it’s not as bad as you say. God is still at work. Right.
And it’s not the end. And it’s not the end. We need to stop with the chicken little history, Chicken Little theology. I don’t know what we’re gonna call it, but I like Chicken Little. It is.
It’s kinda cute. It reminds me of, like, Bugs Bunny cartoons. No. No. Not Bugs Bunny.
Looney Toons cartoons when I was a kid. That was Chicken Little. Right? No. Chicken Little is when the sky is falling.
The moon Yeah. But I think I think he was on there. Oh, yeah. I don’t know about that. No.
That’s the, boghorn leghorn. Yeah. The big rooster, but there’s a chicken little something in there. Oh, never mind. Maybe this is a show.
Howard’s completely distracted. I was just thinking it was I’m out. He checked out after CS Lewis quote. He had, like, a little moment. I heard him snapping in the corner, like, oh.
We we anytime there’s good good a good thought, we snap our fingers. So if you hear that Yeah. It’s like a it’s like a golf clap. It’s like the golf clap. That’s right.
You gotta picture somebody in a in a poetry setting reading c s lewis and going, nice. Right. So anyway, that’s our show for today. Let’s not look for gray and try to make it black. Let’s not, be overwhelmed with the idea that the world is falling apart.
Let’s be truthful about what’s really going on in the world and but let’s have hope. Right. And let’s bring hope to others. Amen. And if you like the show, we’d love to hear about it.
Any comments, questions? Questions and answers. We can give questions or well, we can give answers. I don’t know. We might not be able to give answers or questions.
We might just ramble on. Yeah. Well, we’re gonna try our best. Is that what that’s what Trevor’s saying. We’re gonna try our best.
Yeah. Send in your questions. Send in your comments, even if they’re critical. If we like critical comments as well, we need to start a whole section that says why I think you’re wrong, Howard and Trevor. Right.
And I will be good. And we will read it and enjoy it. If you guys get personal though, that’s kinda messed up. Like, if you say something against Asians, come on, guys. Oh, that’s messed up.
Or if you say something against Howard’s car, that fuchsia color that he’s not It’s periwinkle. Periwinkle. I’m pretty secure myself, so Alright. Well, yeah. Be sure to, tune in again and be sure to spread the word, Truth About Muslims podcast.
Thanks for listening.