The burning of the Jordanian fighter pilot shocked the world. Find out from a Christian living in Jordan why ISIS chose this method of execution and what they were trying to say to the Muslim world. Her stories about God’s faithfulness will encourage you.
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Here starts the auto-generated transcription of God is at work in Jordan Despite Isis: “I Am Muath”:
Once again, Muslim terrorists A terrorist. Islamic extremist. These is not irrelevant. It is a warning. Welcome to the truth about Muslims podcast.
The official podcast of the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media. Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. Alright. So here we are in the studio with a friend, Lisa, from Jordan, and we’re really excited to talk to her today. She’s graciously agreed to come in and, just to kinda share some stories about Jordan, what’s going on there.
And, yeah. So let’s, Trevor, you got a question you wanna start with? With? I do. Always.
How long have you lived in the Middle East? Yeah. We my husband and I have been there 14 years now. Wow. So yeah.
That’s a long time. It has been. It feels doesn’t feel like it, but, yeah, it happens quick. And and you have you have children? Yes.
I’ve got 3 girls. So And do they go to school in public? Public school? I don’t know what they would call it. International school.
We kinda do a combo, and, 2 of our kids were homeschooling. So it’s always, you know, one of those kinda mixed situations. So Do your kids speak better Arabic than you or your husband? No. Actually not.
Alright. So in the news, there’s a ton of stuff going on about Jordan, especially with, ISIS and the fighter pilot burning. Mhmm. And and, also the king of Jordan Mhmm. Actually getting into a a a fighter jet and, and bombing, ISIS.
Well, just to clarify on that, there was a picture of him in the in the regalia of where but he himself did not actually fly. He he he has been trained as a fighter pilot in jet but that was more of a of a promo picture that was kinda put out there to say, hey, we’re going to battle, but he himself did not from our Jordanian news, we we did not get that impression. But I know in the American media, that was the impression. Oh, yeah. In the articles, it was like, oh, yeah.
He’s going out. He’s giving them. You know? I’m just like pulling mock, you know, however many, pulling g. You know, it’s really sad.
It’s kind of been a unifying factor, the death of this pilot. So the name of the pilot and it’s kind of it’s the slogan everywhere is he has united us all. So it’s very much this call of he’s kinda being, you know, lifted up as kind of the symbolic symbol now that we are united now against this fight because of him and his death. If you heard about how this went down, it wasn’t just a simple burning. It was it was brutal.
It was it was antagonistic. And then not only was he burned, but then they brought a bulldozer and crushed his body. And if for a Muslim not to be buried in the in the right way is incredibly shaming. So it was, this is in your face. This is absolutely and so the response was just to the very deepest core of you have just defiled us, and you are you know, the emotion that was tied to that whole event was so deep.
So so you would be saying that ISIS was sending, an insulting message. Like, I am insulting. Not even the right vocabulary. It was a degrading core, you know, like, as as low as we can get to to defame you, we are we are doing this event. Yeah.
And and we in the west were just like, wow. That is tragic. No. No. But to to Jordan, they would be like, this is a message that’s loud and clear.
Is absolutely loud and clear. Yeah. And and and, you know, I don’t know I don’t know enough about why they would have done this. I think it’s, you know, their reasoning was to, you know, they they’re trying to bring instability to Jordan, but it almost brought the opposite response. But that’s interesting because, when we had talked to missionary Brady, who’s working in Southern Sudan, he had mentioned, this tribal identity and how that was oftentimes stronger than political identity, but that doesn’t seem to be the case in Jordan.
Jordan’s unique. You know, Jordan in the 1921 became a a state, and it was particularly Jordanian. Then in the 4860 7 when the Palestinians came in, they’re a big part of the population now too. But there is a very strong sense in Jordan of a national identity. It’s very nationalistic in a lot of ways.
And so even though it is tribal and there definitely are big tribes and family names, they really have a very united identity. That’s really interesting because, there’s Bedouins in Jordan. Are they nomadic? Yes. So still so even as a nurse, I particularly even work out with these nomadic, people.
I mean, they still live in tents, herd their camels and sheep and And and and they work out. Yeah. Wait a minute. Work out. You have you you have bedwins coming into the the gym.
Oh, well, that’s another part of what these are city 5 bedwins. So I also work at a community center that we do a lot of, like, fitness and things like that. So would you Yeah. But we do, but these are bedrooms. So they have their house, their city house, their concrete house.
Oh, okay. And next door, they have their tent. And so they’re grandma, and they’ll still go out and have dinner out in the tent, but then they go sleep inside their concrete houses in the lake. Interesting. Yeah.
So it’s a little city fied. They’re the city fied ones. Yeah. But there’s still this national identity. There very much is.
Very and there’s a lot of pride in being Jordanian. They have a very patriotic kind of sense about them. Okay. So what what would you attribute that to? Because this is kind of one of those things that’s going on.
This is the one of the many identity crises going on within the Muslim world is who are we? Are we Muslim? Are we Jordanian? Are we Turkish? Are we Muslim?
Are we Muslim or Pakistani? Yeah. There’s all of these sort of mixes of identities going on. How did Jordan, just from, you know, living there for the past 14 years, that’s kind of been you’ve been there for a good portion of this process. How did they do it?
I think, you know, they’ve had some very strong leadership, you know, from the monarchy, the Hashemite Kingdom. King Hussein, you know, who was the very strong king through the seventies eighties, and he passed away in the, nineties and his son, Abdullah, came over. But they have endeared the people. I mean, they have been a very compassionate monarchy to the people and very understanding of the plight of the average person. I mean, they can, obviously, they can, deal with the high, but they have really identified, tried to meet the practical needs of the average Jordanian.
And this has really been very unifying for the country. There’s a very pro king type, type atmosphere within Jordan. That’s interesting. And and you also, mentioned that there was yesterday, that you mentioned there’s a parliament. There is.
Is this is this a like a British type government where there’s no the king doesn’t have any power or what? It’s a constitutional monarchy, but the the king still has the final say. And he will, you know, at any moment, he appoints the prime minister, but then he can disband parliament and call for reelection. The reelection of, like, their idea of a congress is democratic. You know, people vote, but he at any time can have say into when that is disbanded and when new vote happens.
But he overturns anything, you know, but he but he does listen to the people and he’s not he’s not you know, he doesn’t come across the as the perception of being superpower hungry. He’s really for the people, and that’s the attitude that most people have about him. There’s a bunch of refugees coming in from, Iraq, Syria, from basically, were fleeing from ISIS. Yes. And Jordan has opened their doors.
Yes. And that, you know, that kind of, goes along with what you’re saying about the king. Yeah. But you had mentioned that the the a lot of the Jordanians had come from Palestinian descent. You know, in 48 and 67 again, you know, if Palestinians flooded into Jordan as well as Lebanon and Syria, but Jordan was one of the very few countries that actually granted them, citizenship when they came in.
And so this really gave them a sense of, you know, you know, there were they weren’t they didn’t just have side papers that they were kind of side lined Right. People that Secondary citizens. They were genuinely citizens now of that country. So many times now as we’ve seen the Iraqi war happen, the Syrian war, there’s a strong that’s been hospitality. This comes even back to the Bedouin roots.
When you have guests and they’re in need, you accept them and you feed them. You care for them. And this is very much tied into the culture. And even with these refugees that are coming in. Now it’s not always all loved.
I mean, there’s definitely tensions that come with it. But in their innate part of their cultural heritage, that’s part of who they they are. So a lot of these, tribal groups, particularly thinking of Bedouins Mhmm. They’ll have a story within their their culture about offering protection Mhmm. Even for the guests.
Exactly. Exactly. I heard one recently and I’m just curious. What what is the story that goes with that? Well, pretty much if anybody is on the run kinda from an enemy or something and comes to your home and you you are you are kind of to welcome them under your tent, under your roof.
When they’re in your home, you protect them and you care for them. You know, this came back to the old days of, you know, in tribalism and a lot of tribal wars were literally happening. But there’s a strong sense of protectionism. And even us as westerners, as an American there, they very much take that under themselves. We have particular families that have even said you are under our covering now.
And when you have a problem, if you have a legal problem, a social problem, you are under our covering, and we will protect you. We will take care of you in our legal system, in our, you know, whatever issue you have, we will we will fight for you. And it’s very much part of the mentality there. On a nationalistic level, you have this refugee group from a neighboring country flooding in. And and, and this is interesting too, listeners.
Jordan is not an economically wealthy country. No. No. Yeah. So it’s not like they just have all this to offer, but they’re still doing this out of sacrifice here.
They really are. And even in, you know, part of Jordan, there is even a Christian church there. 4% of the population have Christian heritage. Out of that, there’s a very small number that are are evangelical. Most of them are from the Coptic or the Orthodox or Roman Catholic.
But with this ISIS, you know, a couple months ago, there were these tribes in Iraq, you know, Christian tribes that were being slaughtered. And we just heard today on the news about some more Christians being slaughtered with through ISIS. But these actually Christian Arabs with the same kind of mentality of open homes if they own any apartments or having extra property or have extra rooms. They have welcomed these Christians fleeing out of these some of these places to come and stay in their homes. So there’s there’s really this, really beautiful spirit of hospitality that’s there in the country.
One particular family, they, he, just a wonderful Christian believing family, and they had an extra apartment in kind of another city. And it was actually a very nice apartment. And they offered it to, there were 5, actually, 5 of these Iraqi families that were fleeing. Five families? Five families went into one apartment.
And they opened the doors, and they were willing to know, you know, hey, our furniture’s gonna get scratched up and our, you know, our dishes might get broken and but, but they, you know, just they were they were kind of a more of an upper class family but really had a a strong sense of this was what God was asking them and calling them to do. So So these Iraqi families, they don’t they didn’t know this man. No. And and, yeah, there’s a risk on. You know, there’s a risk when they do this, but they they feel like this is our contribution.
Our our region, our you know, and especially with other Christians, you know, they really they’ve really felt a strong sense of, hey, God. You know, you we need to really care. We need to care for people. You know, on a sacrificial level. And and and there wasn’t any, like, end in sight.
I mean, they were refugees. Right? So I know of this this family who’ve given up this apartment. There are 5 Iraqi families now living in that apartment. It’s been that was in October.
So it’s been since October that they they that those families have been living there. And and how how has the family’s been responding? I think they’ve had you know, there’s some growing pains because they have a lot of children with them, and so I think a lot of their apartment has actually got a little bit trashed. You know, and when you think 5 family units living in a small apartment. Right.
So that’s been a little difficult for them. But, but at the same time, you know, it’s kind of go back, you know, where your treasure is. That’s where your heart’s gonna be also. And they’ve they’ve kind of really put that in. They’re living that out.
Alright. This week’s sponsors. CIU. CIU. CIU educates people from a bib Biblical.
Biblical world review. Worldview. Real world review. CIU educates people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ. What are your thoughts about Jordan and kind of the social structure there and how does that play into what we see in radical recruitment?
Mhmm. Yeah. You know, from our experience, we don’t see a lot of the radicalism, obviously, of ISIS to that extreme. People are pretty nominal in a lot of ways. My husband and I find that we actually sometimes know the Quran and a little even more about Islam than many of them do.
Wow. And so, so, really, what what feeds a lot of him what we’re seeing I have a personal friend, and her son was just a, you know, kind of a punk kid. And but he they started, Islamic clerics started coming to his school and after school programs. And they started taking a couple of these young boys and kind of talking to them. Then, Ramadan happened.
This was last summer. Ramadan happened. And they started meeting with these boys and doing things with them. Well, my my friend started to notice that her son, he was 16 at the time, began to, you know, go to the prayer times a little more. He started growing his beard a little more, dressing more conservatively.
And, you know, he was just a he was just kind of a a jerk kid. But all of a sudden, he just started to kinda clean up his life. And then his mom started hearing him kinda say, I think I wanna go up to Syria. And, you know, it was very slowly, but just kind of over a couple months, she just completely kinda saw her son almost transformed. But it was the way she put it, it was almost like this kinda gang mentality of kind of her sons and his friends had nothing else to do.
They were understimulated and kind of almost sees Islamic extremists have kinda come in, given them a lot of ideology, kind of helped given them a sense of, hey, you could belong to something. You could be part of something. And almost kinda and she’s just terrified. That that word that you said before, that, gang mentality, that was really, really kind of eye opening for me just to see, wow, this isn’t yeah. It’s it’s social also, you know?
Yeah. What do you find, I guess when I think about young people, I don’t think that they want to become more strict Mhmm. In their religious beliefs. Mhmm. But here you have these guys that are recruiting and turning these kids, I mean, you know, from the outsider’s view, you know, straightening up their life, like you said, about your friend.
Mhmm. So do you know what draws these young people to to that type of lifestyle? I really think that they’re really not part of anything. It’s community. It’s a sense of wanting to belong.
It’s a sense of wanting to to to do something, to have something significant with your life, to you know, and and athletics or or, you know, things that in, you know, in America, there’d be opportunity know, for kids to be involved in music, in arts, in in athletics, you know, different variety of different outlets. I mean, there’s nothing like that for these kinda kids. And so a lot of it is, well, hey. What’s the thing that we’re hearing that’s, you know, the what’s the rah rah rah? What can we really you know, what’s exciting?
What’s adventurous? What’s interesting? So even though it’s stricter, it’s still more adventurous. It is. It captivates, I think, on those emotions and and those feelings.
And and when you begin to hear it, okay, and then it has this, oh, but it’s a noble the nobility of this is a religious, you know, banner that’s been weighed. There’s an automatic feel good. Yeah. Whenever Americans deal with troubled youth, troubled teens Okay. One of the questions they usually ask is, where are the fathers?
In Jordan, where are the fathers? What are they are they just working all the time? Or do they have a divorce problem and the the father skips out of town kinda thing? I mean, like, what because we just don’t know Yeah. Over here.
Family units are very strong. It’s a very high patriarchal system where the father, you know, is is is you know, he works, but he is removed. You know, the mother is the primary dominant, you know, one that raises the children. The father, though, holds the boys in line. He doesn’t hold the girls in line as I mean, there’s yeah.
This is a whole more of a complex social issue in families. But the the boys are given a lot of freedom. They’re very unruly a lot of ways, and it’s very the moms have a difficult time saying no to their boys once they reach after the age of 10 years old. And so you get very poorly behaved, actually, kids that know discipline and know authority and listen to it. Schools have to be incredibly strict in those age groups, kind of that junior high, high school level for boys because they’re not taught and home is not a place where, respect respectfulness is is endeared.
Now from your father, it would be very harshly. But you’re you’re you don’t often give that. But you get a lot of kids that, I mean, kind of are very, like, wild in spirit. I I don’t know the right kind of but they haven’t learned to discipline and self discipline in many ways. It’s interesting that the the mothers have really a great source of power in the family.
They do. They do. Because we don’t often hear, Muslim women presented in that way. But, I was talking with a friend here recently who’s worked extensively in the Middle East and she made the comment, about the power of a mother and a son. Mhmm.
And, so of course, I was thinking, you know, being a mom’s boy is not an insult in an Arab context. No. No. And mother’s day is one of the biggest days of the year. You know, to come and honor your mother is actually a very big thing.
And mothers do this because your your boys are your, retirement plan. And how you raise your boys, they’re the ones that are gonna care for you as you get older and your husband dies. You’re gonna be the one living with them. And so, you know, this is very important for a mother to raise her sons because that’s that’s who’s gonna care for you as you get older. So And so there’s a strong bond and relationship that even happens.
So even though there’s, there’s unruly children, unruly children, there’s still a deep sense of obligation. There is in a way. It’s this tension. You know? It’s, like, the sense of obligation.
You need to love your mother, but you but but boys, like the sense of obligation. You need to love your mother, but you but but boys, once they start reading to you in their teenage years, they’re actually quite, a lot of mothers are scared of their kids. Scared of them? Yeah. They’re just they’re very the rudeness, the, you know, they’re they’re very demanding of their mothers.
It’s a this it’s a it’s a really unique dynamic of Yeah. Of socially what kinda happens in those in those in those ages. So Okay. So Yeah. Do you have do you have a son?
No. I only have 3 girls. Okay. I was gonna ask how how you’ve handled this with your own son when he’s loading. I know.
I know. But it’s hard actually with my girls because there’s very different standards from the way girls are treated from the way boys are treated. Now girls are a lot more strict. They need to be, you know, the top three things. You know, they need to be respectful.
Demure and don’t draw attention to themselves, you know. So that’s you know, those are very important qualities. It’s kind of a crazy story, but this she actually had a father-in-law that during the Iraqi war went into Iraq to to find work because he was he was having a difficult time in Jordan. And while he was there through satellite TV programs, actually, through, Coptic Egyptian, minister, priest actually came to know Christ through the through the satellite TV and began a correspondence In Iraq. In Iraq.
This is other there’s other crazy satellite Internet is huge in ways people come to know Christ. Huge. But, so he became to know Christ and became a correspondence program with these guys in Egypt, grew in his faith some, and then came back to Jordan. Well, he came back to Jordan. He had 3 sons.
And, so but in the meantime, my friend, her name’s Miriam, he, she began having these dreams. And a man would come to her and say, I am the way, the truth, and the life. Alright. So this show wouldn’t be possible without sponsors. And at this point in the show is where if you wanna partner with us, we would put your ad.
So if you wanna be a part of the show, you wanna partner with us, you like what we’re doing, you wanna be on our team, what have you, bringing this show to the world, then email us and let us know. She began having these dreams, and a man would come to her and say, I’m the way, the truth, and the life. And she had no idea what it meant. So this father-in-law came back and began sharing with his sons and her as the daughter-in-law about things, you know, his life change. And they would beat him up, kick him out.
You know? Just yeah. I mean, they just they hadn’t want nothing to do with him. But he kept persistent. We come back.
They beat him up, kick him out again. You know, beat him up, kick him out. Well, then after a few times, they started feeling bad for him. And so finally, they’d let him come and hang around for a little while, then finally, you know, kick him out again. Well, one day he you know, after a series of this, he became and one day was had opened up his bible and actually started reading.
She’s under his breath. I’m the way, the truth. And she just said, stop. Stop. Stop.
She’s like, immediately, what is that? What in the world? And this had been a recurrent dream of hers. And it had really been, and he said, this is this is Jesus. This is Jesus.
And it just opened her heart, to the gospel and and being ready to hear. And then all 3 of his sons, and just each one of those has a different cool story about how God did it, but the whole family unit became to know Christ. Well, I mean, just so they’re all now as a family. Her father was a well known sheikh in our in our town. And so they put under tremendous persecution and pressure for their whole family to to follow Christ.
But their persistence and perseverance to follow after Jesus, to lose so much, Their children, you know, were, you know, many times, you know, family members would come and just say, we’re gonna take these kids away from you because of these decisions you’ve made. But they would just pray over it. He times of intense sickness and issues with their family, God needing them. But their absolute pursuit of god and wholeheartedness that, god, you are worth it even more than these persecutions and struggling. I am humbled.
I’m just humbled to be around her and know her and to see her faith, in tremendous difficulty. It’s so cool because I don’t know, but, I think I meet a lot of people that just kind of assume God is not working in Muslims. Oh, man. You know? Like, this is impossible.
It’s it’s, like, just let them go. They’re they don’t wanna be they don’t wanna, you know, they don’t wanna have their eyes opened. But, like, you just see things like that, and you’re just like But that was, like, there was no missionaries. There was nobody. That was just God interact.
God pursued. Yeah. You know, God’s nobody. That was just God interact God pursued. Yeah.
You know, God’s pursued. And I could tell you I could still tell you hundreds of stories of just experiences we’ve had over the years of meeting people of pursuit of God. You know, like, I had another friend. Could I tell another story? Absolutely.
We love stories. But, you know, I mean, just I had another friend. Her son had pretty severe epilepsy. And so we went, had a visit, and she told us this. And we said, we can just pray.
Pray. And we said, can we pray in Jesus’ name? You know, Jesus is a is a good prophet in Islam and a healer prophet too. So she said, okay. So we prayed.
And, a couple days later, she said, my son hasn’t had any epileptic seizures. In a couple more weeks, she said he has had nothing. And she said you prayed in that Jesus name. What was that about? We said, well, hey.
Come. Let’s let’s study about this. Let’s let’s read about this. We want scripture words to mean more than just our words. So we try as fast as we can to get them into scripture life words.
So she was just I mean, she has just been blown over. But this this was god’s touching her family. Then she had another friend whose husband was gonna go marry a second wife and absolutely devastated this woman because, you know, up in Islam, it’s the 4 wives and but she mostly in Jordan, most only keep 1. It’s only the wealthy or the very poor that often have more than 1. But, but but she was devastated about it.
And our friend said, well, come to this meeting. Come hear about this Jesus. He’ll tell you that you’re significant in the airport. And so she started coming. So then another friend’s husband died, and, we go to their we go to visit her because her after after the death, you know, you woman can’t leave her house for about 4 months afterwards.
And, and while we’re there, as women, we get into random conversations. We begin talking about plucking our eyebrows. Well, in even This is the first evangelistic strategy I’ve ever heard in my life, plucking of the eyebrows. Ladies, I don’t understand it here. I don’t understand it in Jordan.
Hey. This is this is good stuff here. I guess it works. Alright. Go ahead.
Yeah. Alright. However, we gotta try it. You know what? No.
In Islam, in the Hadiths, there are are rules about how hair should be removed. No. Yes. Yeah. And nails and hygiene.
Yes. So this that night, she went to bed and felt the shame and the condemnation of, you know, Allah that because she had been, you know, plugging her eyebrows for years and the next day, on a follow-up visit, said, I’ve got to know. Would God forgive me of this? And do I have a place in heaven and paradise with him? Please tell me, is there any way?
And just, again, share the gospel with her. And she comes to this meeting. So now it’s these 3 ladies meeting together, open scriptures. You know, God is Jesus is meeting them at their practical needs. And this was just a few months ago as we were preparing to come back to the US, but this was a group of ladies gathering together.
But can you say God is not pursuing these people? You know, I keep continuing to hear this theme, but, like, people are studying the Bible with Muslims. They’re not Christians yet. They’re they’re No. It’s not.
They’re studying the Bible with Muslims. Yeah. And it’s not weird. Mm-mm. No.
Now in our context, religious, you know, religion and politics are our top two topics. So we immediate it’s easier for us to get into religious discussion in Jordan than it is here in the US. But, you know, we have to deal with some issues about, you know, talking about the scriptures, you know, this corruption issues. And often some people feel like they’d be cursed if we bring a scripture into their home. So it just depends on who or how we’re engaging, but we have ways.
You know, we have to navigate some of those things. But usually, when Jesus comes and touches them and meets those felt needs, that that stuff just goes to the wayside. And they just wanna get to knowing, hey. Really? What’s this Jesus stuff really about?
Okay. So we we see that, one, there’s an assumption that god’s working. Absolutely. And we assume every visit. Every visit I go into, I assume that god, you’re gonna show up and you’re gonna give me an opportunity to share and he does.
Right on. He does. Why why would we assume anything else? It’s so bizarre that this this is something that is probably earth shattering to us. Right?
I mean, we’re thinking, yeah. Why not? Why should I assume? Yeah. But we should assume that God is working in the lives of his creation.
Absolutely. So you you go in with the assumption that god’s working. Yeah. Yeah. And then 2, you’re And I’m more curious than I am cautious.
Okay. What does that mean? Because, you know, most of the time we think, oh, Muslims and for our contact, Arab Muslims. Oh, we gotta be a little cautious. We don’t know where they’re coming from.
This could get a little, you know, this interaction could get a little extreme or volatile. But you know what? We can live curious. We wanna know about it. We wanna learn about it.
We wanna figure out about it. And that they just you know, everybody, we they love talking about themselves. And as they began to peel back a little bit of more who they are and what they’re about, you get to the heart stuff and you get to the real stuff. So instead of that attitude, instead of caution always immediately, we say no. Let’s not be cautious.
I mean, you know, there’s but let’s be curious instead. Change to have a genuine curiosity about a person. Yeah. Yeah. Because we are, as Westerners, pretty private.
And we don’t want people to be curious about us. But Yeah. You’re suggesting that with Muslims. Oh, and Arab people that we work with are just we find them to be warm, hospitable, interesting. They wanna engage.
They wanna know you. You they want to be known. And so they’re you know what? They might initially give a facade of being a little bit closed. But once you ask start asking those questions, they open up and they’re great conversationalists.
They really are. Okay. So inadvertently, you’ve started giving us advice on how to talk to Muslims, which is just awesome, which is awesome. But the first one you said, or we we discovered was assume that God is at work. Oh, absolutely.
The second thing is be curious Mhmm. Not cautious. And that’s that is huge. Just take a leap and and and be curious, not try to convince them. Right?
And then number 3, what would you say? Number 3, I would just say be persistent. You know, they they did a study. This was years ago. They took 730 MBBs, Muslim background believers, and they said, what was the thing?
How many or one of the studies was, like, how many times do you think you heard the gospel before you believed? And they came out. I remember this from my studies. It was 22 times that they had heard as an average. Woah.
Woah. Woah. 22 times as an average. They’ve heard the gospel 22 times. Before there was any belief.
Yeah. So I say, hey, it’s not just that one time. It’s not the second time. It’s not the third time. It is keep sharing it.
Keep talking about it. Come at it from different angles. Talk about it in different ways. Just keep doing be persistent. Churchill.
We’re Winston Churchill. Don’t never give up. Never. Never give up. Never give up.
Never give up. Oh, and another really important principle is you have to establish yourself as a moral person. Because there is an assumption as an American that Muslims will assume that we are amoral people. Because where I live, they get all of our movies, all of our TV shows. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, now it’s Kardashians. Now it’s Oh, no.
Beverly Hills, Quiet Housewives. I’m so sorry. So so they think you want me to become that? That’s a Christian to them. So I’ve got to totally change their perception and mentality of what it really means to be a Christ follower.
What it really you know what? We don’t even call ourselves Christians there. We don’t we say I’m a follower of Jesus because if I say I’m a Christian, that means something very different to them. Okay. So in in reality, calling yourself a Christian might be actually a little bit deceptive because what they’re gonna hear you say is not what you actually are.
So I clarify it more by saying I’m a follower of Christ, of Jesus. And then they’re like, well, what does that mean? And then You get to explain it. It opens up the door. So you’re saying be actually religious.
To be. You have to show you have to show that you’re somebody who really prays. You need to share scriptures that mean a lot to you. You need to, you know, you need to engage them because they will see you. They will elevate.
You need to be seen as a spiritual person in their eyes. Now also, sociological studies say that you talk about the most important thing in the first 20 minutes of a conversation. No. So yeah. Don’t you yeah.
Hey, I study. What do I talk about? Both Howard and I are looking at each other like, what do we talk about in the first meeting there? So you have to It’s always my wife, Katie. I love you.
Me me too. Me too. Not Katie. My wife. So the show wouldn’t be possible without sponsors.
And this week’s sponsors are Zwammer Center. Zwammer Center. Zwamer Center. Zwamer Center. And what does the Zwamer Center do?
Talks about Muslims and and tells them on the computer that we love you. Very nice. The Zweimer Center equips the church to reach Muslims. The Swimmer Center has been educating people about reaching Muslims before it was cool. So but yeah.
But you have to get out there and say, hey, within 20 minutes, if somebody is if a Muslim’s in front of me, do they know that I’m a spiritual person, that I’m a moral person, and that God and my relationship with God is significant and important? You know, it’s that same thing on an airplane. Mhmm. When you get on an airplane Yeah. You have a period of about 5 seconds Okay.
Where you’re either gonna have a conversation for that flight or not. Yeah. And it’s usually like in those 5 seconds, I’ve either had a conversation or there’s no talking for the entire flight. Yeah. And it’s almost like, man, what do you do?
And usually it’s the person puts their headphones on before they even walk on the plane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The non verbals.
The non verbals. Yeah. And the and the thing that you talk about is what do you do? Yeah. What do you do for a living?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, you know, be religious, be moral, and and display that you care about God and you care about spiritual things.
Yeah. Be cautious. Be cautious. I mean, be curious. Be curious, not cautious.
It was a test. That’s right. And we both failed. Be curious and not cautious. Yeah.
And don’t be deterred. Don’t be to keep at it. Keep doing it. You know? Yeah.
We have I think we forget that that even though they seem far off, they’ve been brought near. Yeah. That that Christ is working. Yeah. Yeah.
And if you’re interacting with them here in the US, I just think, wow. How cool is that? That God has brought them right here to your doorstep and have this opportunity. And don’t make the assumption that, wow, they’re a cell group person or, you know, here to infiltrate our country or Right. I mean, just I mean, those are the things our minds go to.
Don’t they? We’ve seen movies about all this. Right? Right. But but to go to and saying, hey, God, you have placed this person from a far off land, put it right on my doorstep, and I didn’t even have to go anywhere.
Right. And, Lord, you are at work. You are in pursuit of that person. My favorite. That’s my favorite.
Of them. Yeah. Believe that God is at work because he is. Yeah. He is.
Oh, it takes the pressure off. Yeah. And it’s he’s the one that’s gonna save them. We don’t have to. Let’s just be genuine and loving and truth tellers and truth walkers in front of them, and he’s the one that’s gonna do the work, the spirit work.
Yeah. Yeah. Lisa, thank you so much, for coming in. That was awesome. Your stories and, of course, all the interesting things just to see on the ground to help us to kinda see.
I told Lisa, when, you know, she was interested in being interviewed, actually, we pestered her until she agreed. Relentlessly. I asked her 3 times, not 22, 3 times. Persistence? Right.
Persistence. I was not to be deterred. And, you know, basically, I wanted the listeners, I wanted you guys to hear, you know, like how it is on the ground so that people know that, you know, Jordanians are real people that have real struggles, that that think and feel and are have goodness and, and also want to know Jesus and that God is at work. And so, so, yeah. Lisa, thank you so much for coming in.
I know that, it was a sacrifice, but hopefully you had a lot of fun. Yeah. I hope I’m encouragement to people because we just love Arab Muslim people. Right. They are a joy to us, and I cannot count any other privileged place than to be where I’m at with those people.
Right. Well, thanks so much. Thanks so much for coming in. It’s been a huge encouragement. This is, Truth About Muslims podcast.
Check us out on iTunes. Subscribe, write reviews, and, keep listening. Thank you. Alright. I have to ask one more one more question just to to see where what what the response is.
But, and this may or may not go on. I don’t I didn’t wanna ask because I didn’t wanna put you on the spot. But, what is it like for for Arab women living in that context when it comes down to that honor shame paradigm? Because I don’t think that we, as Americans understand an honor shame system. But Jordan is quite world known.
I mean, it’s renowned as being a society of honor and shame. How does that work in a in a female context? I think one of the base things you have to understand, it’s a collective society not individual society. So you are part of a whole. You are not just your own.
You, whatever you do is reflective upon your family and then ultimately on your tribe and who you, you know, and and your family name. And so it’s a very strong sense of the whole is more important than the individual. So in this honor, shame, if if somebody was to step outside of what, you know, what is deemed as honorable, You bring shame not only to yourself. It’s not just individual. It’s to that whole family unit.
And that’s a very strong thing because how marriage works. When somebody even goes to get married, you find out, well, what’s that family name? And every family has a reputation, not just individuals. The whole family does. And you will even make a choice.
Will I marry into that family reputation or will I not? So this is a this whole collective idea. So it is a very strong ingrained when you have people that make choices that bring shame onto your family, how that is dealt with. And how the family then can repair its honor again is very important because that that is your identity in your community. It impacts your employment.
It impacts your view, how, you know, your your economic status. It it it has a significant ripple effects your your, your identity. And so, you know, we’ve talked about, like, honor killings and things like this that even happened in Jordan because of this collective idea. If somebody, you know, maybe is promiscuous and has a pregnancy or something like that out of wedlock, that in the Muslim is seen as bringing great shame onto your family. That’s just not reflective of that of that person.
But that then is a whole family. You are seen now as a very loose or a very amoral family grouping. The whole family. The whole family. And so often to repair that, then in these extreme situations, an uncle or a brother or something will go and even kill.
You know, this these are very extreme situations. You know, we’ll go and kill that girl or it’d be only girls. It wouldn’t be boys. We’d kill that girl that has brought that shame onto their family. Does it repair?
And it then it would repair in the eyes of the community then you have rightly and justly repaired by showing you have this moral code and you are willing to even sacrifice your own child to elevate this moral code again. So is there any connection there with the gospel about restoring the honor of God? This is something I’ve been thinking about in in classes that we teach here in in how to present the gospel in an honor shame context. Is there a way in which we can present the gospel to a person in an honor shame system that would be more understandable? Because we we talk about legal, modes of salvation.
Right? Yes. Yes. It changes. So I’m just it’s something I’ve been thinking about, and I’ve I’ve thought, if I ever meet somebody working Jordan, I’m gonna ask them so that you you’re the lucky contestant.
Well, like this. I’ll give you a couple examples. Often we get people and they say, oh, you believe as a, Christian that God had sex with Mary and that produced Jesus. And if I say, oh, no. That’s not right.
You know? I say, what? What are you thinking? How can you even think this? You know, this is crazy.
You know, I say this to my friend. Really? But I have to be passionate and I have to be this is you think I would think I mean, she’s dishonored me. Shameful. You have shamed me by even thinking this, you know.
And so this you know, I have to I have to I have this kind of attitude when I’m addressing the way we even do evangelism is impacted by this. And if that kind of is addressing the way we even do evangelism is impacted by this. And if and if they say your Bible’s been corrupted, you know, and I say, you believe God’s word? God would allow his word to this to happen to his word? And this this gets them then.
Then they’re like, woah. She’s been shamed by this. How could I even think this then? You know? And not only that, but you’ve you’ve actually brought God into the picture and say, are you saying God can’t protect his word?
That he is somehow weak? Yes. Yes. You know? And so these these are the kind of honor, shame things.
When I am shamed by their misconceptions about what I believe, I have to put a back on them and say, how could you even think that, you know? So never ever heard, like, that type of thinking. It’s crazy. Yeah. So is this why we have such a hard time understanding when somebody does something foolish and and and and salts their prophet and says something negative about Muhammad, they feel like there’s been a great shame.
Oh, yes. Yes. And there needs to be a making right of that shame. Absolutely. And that’s the context to which they approach it.
Absolutely. You know, in years, my husband and I have studied apologetics, studied Islam, you know, a lot of these type of things. But you know what? In honesty, we don’t go after it for us. As western people, we don’t feel we have the place because the often our words and our harsh words about Muhammad, about certain aspects of Islam, bring incredible shame to them as we communicate that.
And so we have to be very honorable in the way that we don’t we don’t wanna be accepting of it. But the way we can craft our words to still not be condescending Right. Actually opens so many more doors for us than closes doors. Right. And so we understand a lot of the apologetics.
We understand a lot of those, and and there’s a place for this. And there are people now. A Muslim who’s come to know Christ out of Islam can speak very powerfully on an apologetic level because they’ve come out of it. Right. And they know it.
They’ve and they can they have a voice into it. But because I haven’t come out of that background, I I’m I I I bring greater shame when I communicate it. So I I’m very cautious about how we navigate those those those along those ways. Does that make sense? Yeah.
It does. Okay. Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s just it opens up a whole new world of understanding when you’re looking at somebody through the world the way that way they view the world, you know? And I think we have to do that.
Yeah. We can’t just assume that they see things the way that we do. And I think we can understand the honor shame system a little bit because when that Jordanian pilot was burned alive, nobody seemed to be nobody seemed to mind when Jordan immediately executed 2 radicals Yeah. In his place. Yeah.
And they didn’t recognize that they were actually seeing that honor shame system get played out right then and there.