Here starts the auto-generated transcription of Iranian American Shirin Taber’s Story:
Once again, Muslim terrorists A terrorist Islamic extremists down to the mistresses of the country. Random terrorism brutal identity. Newsflash America. These is not irrelevant. It is a warning.
Welcome to the Truth About Muslims podcast, the official podcast of the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media. Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. This week’s sponsor. As always, CIU, Columbia International University equips students with a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ. And Zwemer Center.
Zwemer Center equips the church to reach out to Muslims with understanding. And the Zwemer Center has been around since 1979. So they’ve noticed themselves. Yeah. They know what they’re talking about.
Zwemer Center is, zwemer.com. That’s z w e m e r. I had I had to spell it because people were asking. Right. Okay.
Here we are with episode 10. We’ve got an excellent interview that I’m super excited about today with, well, we don’t really know how to pronounce her name Yet. Yet. But I’m gonna go with Sharyn Taber. That’s what I Howard Howard says it’s a shit in.
So what? He has an Asian feel to it. I don’t know. Maybe it’s his Korean that’s coming out. Alright.
Listen. You listeners, please write in. Be on my side. Sure. I said sure in first.
Anyway, she is the author of Muslims next door that’s put out by Zondervan and also the book wanting all the right things and that’s put out by relevance. So Muslims next door is the book that we’re gonna be talking about today, and I’m I’m I’m excited. We’ve been looking at the book this morning, and it looks like good stuff. Yeah. It’s really comprehensive.
There’s so much stuff that you can go through and just apply, I think, and help your, inform your understanding, of Muslims. And she tells her story too, which is pretty cool. And that’s what we kinda wanna get to today. Absolutely. Because she she comes from, well, we’ll let her tell the story, but just kind of as an intro, she has a Muslim father.
Her mother was Catholic. She is, American Iranian. And, you know, being, Iranian American, I don’t which one do you say first, actually? Iranian American or American Iranian? Well I guess we’ll let her say.
For me Yeah. There you go. You say Korean American. What’s up with that? Korean American car?
American Korean? Yeah. No. You do. You say Korean American.
Korean American. So Iranian American, I think. Yeah. No. No.
No. That’d be fine. Yeah. So, anyway, she, she served with, crew for 20 years. Wow.
That’s a long time. Formerly known as campus crusade. I still can’t I have a hard time getting on board with Crew. I keep, you know, it’s been Campus Crusade in my mind for so many years, and and I’m not even a fan of the word crusade. I don’t know if I ever have been, but Campus crusade has got, like, an identity in my mind.
Right. And crew is sounds cool, and their logo their new logo looks cool, but, I just don’t identify that with them. But that’s that’s just me. Yeah. It’s just gonna take a while to rebrand get us old guys out of there.
Crew. So she served with crew as a college student, and was 20 years in direct ministry in the United States, Europe, and the Middle East. Wow. And, has been working with Muslims the whole time. And I just think, you know, she has a real and and that’s why the title of this episode is, an insider’s perspective or an insider’s view.
She’s gonna give us the insider’s view on Muslims Next door because she has grown up as, I guess with I would I would assume a a multiplicity of identities, you know, having a Muslim father, Catholic mother, Iranian, American, I just I’m really excited to hear her story. Right, me too. So, without further ado Yeah, let’s give her a call. Alright. Hi, Trevor.
How are you guys? We’re doing good and this is Howard here. Hi. Hi, Howard. Good morning.
So we had a little bit of a day, debate before calling you on how to pronounce your name. Would you go ahead and settle that for us? Yes. Okay. So it’s Shereen.
Shereen. We were off. Both of us lost. Most people say Sheerin. Oh, that’s what we said.
Yes. But, it’s Persian, and there is no n sound in in that part of the world. So it’s Sheerin. It’s a long e sound, the I. The second I is like a long e sound.
Yeah. It you know, it sounds much nicer when you say it. We butcher names. I don’t know. Shireen sounds nicer than Shereen.
So we were both wrong. Shireen Taber. Shireen Taber. So my married name is obviously, you know, Anglo. Right.
Yeah. We got that part right. Yeah. Well, thanks thanks so much for joining us. We’ve been, we’ve been looking at your book this morning and really excited to hear about your story.
Thank you. Yeah. I look forward to sharing. Yeah. So, why don’t we just get started with, what what made you wanna write this particular book?
No. Well, I, you know, I was very concerned after 9:11, and I was getting calls from friends that were saying, are you okay? You know, we’re worried about the backlash towards Muslims even in America. I don’t know if, you know, if you all, were following the the news back then. That was quite a while ago.
But No. We were following it very closely. Yeah. I was actually yeah. I was on my way to a church.
How old you are. You you could be 24 or you could be older and remember. I mean, a lot of the younger people don’t really remember what happened. But, but, my point is that, the, rate of, you know, prejudice acts or outlash outlashes towards the Muslim community was quite high. And so it took me back to my childhood experience of experiencing the hostage crisis in 1979.
And I was a young girl, but I I very much remembered how it felt to feel like an outsider and not only an outsider, but, you know, associated with the terrorist community. And, and I felt like, wow. This is a great opportunity to share with my American neighbors, you know, who are these Muslims? Why have they come to America? What are they looking for?
And for Christians in particular, you know, what an amazing opportunity we have to reach out to them, at a time where they’re feeling very vulnerable and misunderstood. So, really, it was a book of building bridges, encouraging a Christian, community to continue to move towards their neighbors in love. Wow. Address addressing the fear and even hatred they might feel, and ultimately just equipping them a handbook on how what does that look like when you reach out to your Muslim coworker, colleague, a student on campus. Well So I I I don’t really handle Islam or the theology other than, sharing some points we have in common, which might be a bridge in, you know, sharing the gospel.
Right. Yeah. So that’s interesting because you in in light of 911, you took you didn’t take a back seat. You went and took it to your American neighbors and tried to help, help them understand and, to reach out to them. That that’s amazing.
Yeah. I was really I was hoping with the addition approach. It was a really, interesting experience while I was writing the book. I felt like I had, many moments where the Lord was saying, use this book to inspire people and to really help Christians identify the heart of the gospel which is a message of love. And if you can’t if you can’t experience towards those who are hardest to love, then, you know, what good is the gospel?
I mean, what good is the Christian life? And that’s what we try to get across in the show. Yeah. Yeah. Shireen, we we call the show truth about Muslims as opposed to truth about Islam because we’re much more interested in talking about Muslims than we are talking about the theology of Islam because it’s the people that we’re interested in.
And so it’s really interesting that you’d kind of you draw that distinction already. We like you. Thank you. Yeah. Well, you know, I grew up in a home with a Muslim father.
I mean, in fact, right now, he’s been in and out of the hospital and I just have it’s hard, but I have to go back to, you know, what has Christ called me to do? And Wow. Just serving him even though he’s still I’ve asked him multiple times to really consider Christ and to pray with him, and he’s, you know, still a Muslim. And that’s where he’s at. You know?
And so God just he continues to show me that I need to address issues in my own heart and, you know, and and as I’m transformed, then hopefully others will be transformed around me. You mentioned after 9:11 that it was, a reminder of what it was like, as a child to go through the Iranian revolution and feel like an outsider. Could you, give us a little bit more about that so that listeners can understand kinda your background? Sure. Yeah.
I mean, it’s a really painful time. I was a young girl. I was, in junior high. And, you know, when you’re in junior high, you just wanna be as normal as possible. Right.
Like, fly fly under the radar. You’re going through so many changes, you know, puberty and all that stuff. Right. Howard has a junior high, daughter, so he understands the awkward years of junior high. Yes.
Right. Right. Right. It’s it’s a tough tough time. I mean, you’re looking around your peers and you just so much want to be like them.
And I wasn’t, you know. I I really identify with the character in, I don’t know if you remember that movie, The Exact Greek Wedding. Oh, yeah. I love that movie. Excellent movie.
I don’t know if you remember. There’s a scene where she had flashbacks of being in high school and, you know, all the cute blonde girls and she just kinda forgot. Like, it’s. And, I mean, I’m I’m definitely, you know, I’m part of American but, because of my coloring and because I had moved back from Iran in 5th grade, my teachers and and classmates knew I was Iranian. Wow.
There’s no way to hide that. What what state were you what state was this that you were growing up in yeah. We were actually in Washington, Seattle, which is a pretty progressive area. Yeah. But, but, you know, I mean, the hostage crisis was real.
There were Oh, yeah. People pinning up yellow ribbons everywhere and the news. And, there were songs on the radio, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, you’re on. Gosh. And So so how did people react to you?
Is did they know you were Iranian or were you kinda, like, Oh, yeah. Afraid to even say? Because I I’ve heard this one particular Iranian comedian say that during the, you know, the 1979 revolution and then after Not Without My Daughter, he wanted to change his name to Tony. Yes. Yes.
I have relatives that changed their names to Tony. Oh my. Yeah. And David and Mike and all Wow. Other names.
Yeah. Yeah. I can I can just say it was when I was as a young girl, you know, 11, 12 years old, I was introduced to ideas of shame and guilt Mhmm? At a very profound level. Wow.
And, even though I was not a part of, you know, obviously, the violence, I wasn’t even there at the time. I felt associated with it. And I had teachers that stopped me in the hall and would say, Shareen, is it true that you’re Iranian? You know, I heard that you’re Iranian. You know, what do you say?
You’re just looking at them wide eyed. And then there’d be kids in the hall, boys in particular, that, you know, would kinda roughhouse and tease me and, you know, push my brothers around in particular who are a little younger than me. Push them around near the, you know, bathroom and make jokes about, you know, taking hostages. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
We got through that, but I just remember looking around and thinking, oh, I just wanna feel normal. I just wanna be a normal kid. You know, why do I have to have this stigma associated with me? Flash forward, you know, 6, 7 years later, I, you know, started walking with Christ through a neighbor. I can tell that story more later.
But, a group of Christians who are with Campus Crusade for Christ treated me completely different. They’re like, wow. That’s so exotic. That’s so amazing that you’re from, you know, your parent is from Iran. That’s so cool.
They’re like, wow. Think of all the things you can do in life because you are multicultural. And, they challenged me actually to embrace my heritage and then, of course, use it for the kingdom. Well, Shareen, it sounds like that would be something that a lot of listeners would like to know. So what was it that actually drew you to Christ through these folks?
Like, a little bit about your testimony because it seems like so many Muslims right now are in that same boat that you’re in. They just wanna feel normal. Everything they see in the media Yeah. Is demonizing them. And so what what was it about these people that drew you to Jesus?
Yeah. Well, you know, the I did my mother was Catholic, so I had some knowledge of the gospel. Mhmm. But the the, you know, the inciting incident, for example, would be my mother passed away, a year later in 1980. And, we had a neighbor across the street who came in and just completely took over.
And, the enormity of her love and her service to my family was, I mean, I’ve never seen that before. She just, you know, provided meals and carpooled us and, you know, fed us and got us Christmas gifts and just her love. And then, of course, then she began to share Christ with us and, you know, sharing that I couldn’t, you know how could I go through with my mother’s death and and approach my future alone. And so she encouraged me to receive Christ. And, you know, it was so compelling because her lifestyle backed up her words.
So, it seems like Pamela was pretty influential in you coming to know Jesus. Yes. She was. She was a neighbor that lived, across the street. Even though she had 3 children of her own, she made time for our family, and she she just provided for us in ways that were extraordinary and, providing meals.
She had the church praying for us. You know, she made time out of her schedule to help us with getting us to sporting activities and including us in her family and taking us to church. All these things, you know, combined, just gave a magnitude to her her her sharing Christ with us. Yeah. And, it doesn’t seem like that’s very normal within, you know, an American context.
Like, if you were in Iran and and you knew a neighbor that maybe had lost a mother, that you would see a lot of people kind of reaching out. But in in the United States, we don’t often see that. So that’s pretty amazing for this lady to take that role. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. No. She did. She just she was an exceptional human being. But you know what?
It serves an as an example, as a template for me. And, you know, I followed her lead over the years, and we’ve had a lot of students and people in our home and sharing Christ with them. And that’s just the power of, you know, a role model, a disciple, someone who really takes it seriously, you know, God’s call for us to to love our neighbors as ourselves, and I saw it firsthand. I continue to see it. Yeah.
Absolutely. Did you get the chance, to travel at all through the Middle East, and what were some of your experiences? Or maybe even Iran. Oh. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Definitely. So after I graduated from University of Washington, I, you know, I felt a call on my life to to serve internationally. And so I joined, the ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ, and I was, very involved in campus ministry with college students. And I’ve lived and worked in the Middle East and in Europe and the US.
And I traveled extensively throughout North Africa and the Middle East, including Iran. Some trips were, you know, more just to, to visit, and, others were trips where we actually working and serving the minority churches in that region. Right. In your book you in your book you mentioned, when you tried to go back to Iran after you had been married. Oh, yeah.
That was a really interesting story. Tell us tell us about that. What happened there? I forgot about that. Well, I I came to find out.
Initially, I thought it would be no big deal to travel back to to visit my dad. He really wanted me to come back and visit him. And I was about 30 years old and, you know, relatively newly married, and I had 2 little kids. And I thought it would be a piece of cake, and I found out I needed a passport to go to Iran. Right.
And I was like, oh, Iranian passport. Yes. Wow. Yes. And, it’s, come to find out that because of my heritage, they viewed me as, Iranian and, like my father.
And so, therefore, I had to have a passport, Iranian passport to travel there. It was really difficult. This part I don’t know if I can share too much about this, in the interview, but, it’s really tough being, you know, a follower of Christ and traveling into that part of the world. And so they challenged me on several levels about, you know, my marriage certificate, that it was a Christian wedding, and they challenged me on a lot of issues. It was really tough to get the paperwork to be able to travel.
So I did finally I was able to go, but it was a very difficult getting in and out. And I I probably won’t be doing that again in near in near future. Yeah. So so for their for the government, the government was asking you questions about your faith and your religion. Yes.
Wow. That’s interesting. They didn’t understand why I was not Muslim like my father. Yeah. It seems like there would be no context for an Iranian that wasn’t Muslim, then it must have threw them into a little bit of, confusion.
They did not well, they didn’t recognize my Christian wedding certificate. They said that I was not legally married according to their their laws. Oh. I would have to have a Muslim Muslim wedding to be considered legally married. Oh, man.
And, yeah, that my children were not my children. They were my husband’s children. Wow. So it was really tough. But I I went back 7 times and, was able to finally get the documentation.
But it’s it’s really tough, really tough to travel to that part of the world. I don’t don’t recommend it unless you, you, you know, you really have everything in order and you’re ready Yeah. To deal with those those challenges. Shareen, what what has it been like, for your relationship with your father, being Christian? And you mentioned your father being being Muslim.
Would you be okay with sharing a little bit about what been been like for you and him? Yeah. Of course. I mean, I grew up in a home where, you know, my parents, you know, they chose to marry each other. My mother was Catholic.
My father was Iranian and Muslim. We lived a blended life of cultures and languages and traditions. So we’ve navigated it, you know, as a family all these years. Definitely, there are some points that we don’t we don’t talk about, just because they’re they’re create misunderstandings. And, you know, some of the projects I’ve done over the years, I don’t share those with my family, my my, Iranian relatives.
Right. Some are for security reasons. Some are just you know, they’re, outside the box for them. But, in general, it’s it’s been an amazing opportunity because it’s it’s part of my heritage. That’s what compelled me to continue to share and continue to work in that part of the world and resource that part of the world.
I live with attention every day every day. And I think, it’s compelling. You know? It it would I have friends that their parents have come to faith in Christ, and they just pretty much go on with their lives and they embrace, you know, the American dream. And and and yet I feel like, you know, I’m regularly reminded that I can’t just forget about that part of the world and Muslim people, that it’s still, you know, a part of my life.
And my kids’ lives. My kids have grown up with, you know, Muslim relatives. My stepmom and dad remarried a very devout Muslim woman. So when she stays with us, she prays 5 times a day in her home. And And they see that.
Kids are Right. Confronted with that. Yeah. And it’s do you know? It’s good.
It just keeps everything very real. You know, we watch the news as a family, and my kids are drawn to those stories of ISIS. And my son is, in college and wants to go and actually serve in that region. Wow. You know, why?
Because it’s part of his heritage, and he feels like he’s part of that great story. Right. He wants He wants to participate. Yeah. And you mentioned heritage.
Is it difficult for you to separate, the the the is the Islam or Muslim, from the from the heritage of, Iran? No. No. They’re so no. Not at all because, you know, the Iranians are they are a culture unto themselves.
They’re different than the Arabs or they’re different than the church. Right. And there are things there are things that are that are, you know, Iranian in nature that are different than Islam. And, you know, most Iranians would tell you that they were not Muslim to begin with. You know?
They were conquered by the Arabs. And and then more recently, in light of the regime change, where they were under a monarchy and now they’re under, you know, religious hotel, dictatorship. Right. You know, they’re very aware of how their life styles have changed. Their people inside their homes or their parties, they’re fully Persian.
They’re fully Iranian. So it there is a distinction. But, you know, they they’re still Muslim. They’re not gonna say they’re anything else. Right.
Right. I think I think that’s one of the misconceptions that people often have is that there is no distinction between cultural identity and religious identity. And they just kinda see these as, you know, intricately weaved together and inseparable. But it sounds like you’re saying that, you know, you can be, fully Persian and also a follower of Christ, and there’s, no problem with that for you. That’s that’s very encouraging.
Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. So looking at, 911, you said that that kind of promoted a lot of the misconceptions struck with how and I’m sure this has happened all throughout. I struck with how and I’m sure this has happened all throughout history, but how quickly, you know, an event or something that happened in one location in the world would affect, you know, 100 and 1,000 and millions of people that were not with at all.
Right. And I you know? And and if you really do know your Muslim neighbor or colleague or coworker, for the most part, 90% of the time, they’re fairly moderate. They’re fairly secular. And the very reason why they come to this country is because they’re looking for the same things that we’re looking for.
They’re looking for, you know, freedom of speech, freedom of thought. They wanna, you know, raise if they have daughters, they wanna raise their daughters in a a society that promotes equality and will give their kids every opportunity that they can. And so, you know, but so quickly, you forget those things and just kind of canvas the whole Muslim world as if, you know, they are exactly like what we’re seeing right now in the news, you know, ISIS and so forth. Now I don’t wanna diminish the fact that there are elements in Islam, that very quickly can blow up and turn into, like, what we’re seeing in Islam. No no pun intended.
Yes. Exactly. There there are things that, you know, we can’t identify with where you can have very quickly in the Middle East a mom mentality you can have. But I don’t think that needs to be a fear for us here in America. Right.
And and you do mention a little bit in the book about sort of the historical background between some of that mob mentality that’s kind of been perpetuated. Right? Yes. Yes. Yes.
And I, one thing I’ve tried to share with my colleagues, even some who are, in Christian full time ministry, and they’ll get frustrated with, believers in Christ who come from a Muslim heritage. You know, let’s say a Christian Iranian Christian or Arab Christian, but they’ve only been a Christian for 10 years or 20 years. And they’ll make comments, you know, where they will disparage them. And I have to remind them, you know, we are a first generation of believers. I’m a first generation in a line of, that goes back, you know, 1600 years to Mohammed.
And so my life as a Christian is gonna look different than someone who comes from a heritage where their grandparents, their great grandparents, and their great great grandparents were, you know, Christian and going to church and establish these ones and, you know, things that we take for granted. Those are things you passed on from generation to generation, how you live your life, your morals, your values, your your integrity, your, you know, believing that lying, for example, is is not a good thing or whatever it is. Right. And, so my point is that, you know, we as a nation have embraced, freedom of speech or First Amendment or going back in time, you know, the enlightenment and the Protestant, you know, reformation. All these things have shaped our psyche and our value system.
But when you’re coming from the Middle East, these are fairly new ideals. And for some people, they don’t even accept them. So we just see a lot of patience in in relating to our Muslim neighbors and then those who even come to Christ need to realize that these things will played out in 2 and 3 generations. That is an amazing point. I’ve never I’ve never thought about that.
I’ve I’ve always known about, cultural differences between Muslim background believers, but I just never thought I never I never thought in those terms and just how much their just their worldview might be completely different than than someone that has a a heritage of, Christian faith. That that’s amazing. Yes. Very much so. And so I always say, hey, it’s gonna take 2 or 3 generations.
Right. Please be gracious with my brother or sister. Right. Absolutely. Frustrated with their world view.
And I see those changes in my household. You know, I married, you know, a guy who’s white and Lutheran and Uh-huh. And, you know, blue eyes. And and then I see that, you know, his his way of living and thinking has affected my children. And even though my children have a or Iranian heritage and their grandfather’s Muslim, I see, the things that my husband has added to their lives.
But I still hang on to some of our Iranian culture too because there are things that are beautiful in in the Middle East that I want my kids to hang on to. Right. Yeah. The concept of not. I was kinda wondering, Shireen, if there’s, maybe some things in the Iranian world view that would maybe challenge some of our western views of theology and the ways that we relate to God and maybe, we could learn a great deal from Muslims that come to know Jesus and think about God differently than maybe we do.
Could you share maybe some of those things that you’ve seen Yes. In in the church in the west? Definitely. I mean, I can share more, later. But, you know, the the way I raise my kids, honestly I mean, there is this aspect of, biblical Christianity and our values.
But then there are things in Iranian culture, things like hospitality and Mhmm. And modesty and, you know, showing respect to, our elders Right. Serving people when they come in their home, you know, that our guests are first. All these things these are things that I learned through my Iranian heritage. I did not learn them, you know, just living in American culture.
Now I’m not saying it’s not there. It is I’m sure there are it is there. You do have to look hard for it. Yeah. I mean, if you just watch TV all day and you’re on the Internet, you’re not gonna learn it.
It it really has to be something passed down from your grandparents or you just you know, you’re part of an amazing community. But, yeah, my girls, in particular, I find very, much more difficult to raise daughters here than it would be in a, you know, in your not in a I’m not saying a Muslim context, but in Iranian context Right. Where times are very little. It’s just a given that you’re hospitable and you’re modest and you’re polite and you’re you’re goal oriented, but you still, you know, you work towards showing respect to your parents. And, you know, and not that every Iranian or Middle Eastern home is perfect, but those are definitely ideals that are sewn into the culture again.
We see that as a common theme. You’re right. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
And I I I see that too, like, with my girls. Howard’s Korean, by the way. Yeah. I’m Korean. My my my wife is American.
And so we Oh, okay. Great. And so we have kind of that interesting thing too that we we kinda see them picking up certain things. But it’s difficult when the rest of their peers, are not learning these things or it it’s not being reinforced by the culture around. And so something that you’re trying to instill in your in your daughters, you know, it’s it’s being countered by the world, by the by the culture we live in.
So it yeah. I totally understand. It it’s difficult. Yeah. So okay.
Yeah. Yeah. I think we strove up in common and, yeah, Asian and Middle Eastern, the way we, yeah, the way we raise our kids. So, in in your book, Shireen, you mentioned that one of the key components is being able to, live your Christian faith, authentically with your Muslim friends. Could you give us, like, a few examples of what you mean?
What does it mean to live an authentic Christian faith with Muslims? Yes. That’s a great question. Yeah. First of all, I’d like to share that, the idea of living authentically is to not be ashamed of the fact that you’re a Christian.
That oftentimes, Muslims, when they come to the US, even if they were to meet you in their homeland, if you’re an American or even if you have an Asian or African heritage, they’re gonna assume that you are a Christian. They may not understand what it means to fully be committed and surrendered to Christ, but they’re just gonna assume you are. So you don’t need to make any apologies for who you are in your faith. Right. Yeah.
That’s a little bit different. Curious. Yeah. They’re gonna be curious to see, okay, what does this look like in, you know, the modern world? What does this look like day to day in a workplace or in the context of a friendship or, you know, on campus or in your marriage?
And so, yeah, there’s no reason to, make excuses or, if anything, live it out boldly and dynamically. And then the other point I would make is, you know, just roll through life with your Muslim friends. We don’t have to, always be doing spiritual activities with people to somehow point them to Christ? Yes, of course. You know, it would be awesome if you could invite them to church or a small group, and offer to pray with them and to give them a scripture or to point them to some, media, perhaps, Christian broadcasting or or Christian films.
But, ultimately, they have to see you just living your life. You know? It’s it’s having third parties and, you know, going if if you’re a parent, you know, being standing next to each other on the soccer field and cheering on your kids. And if if they’re struggling in a relationship or their marriage, you know, really taking an interest and offering to walk with them through that, realizing that Muslims, they oftentimes feel very deeply, whether they’re grieving the death of someone or a broken relationship, that you would just enter into life with them and just, you know, be Christ to them as much as you can. It’s really interesting it’s really interesting that you say that, Shareen, because in our context, we think of, the gospel as being something that we hope to eventually get to in relationship and we kinda have this friendship evangelism.
And then, you know, maybe a year from now, we tell someone we’re Christian. But with a Muslim, you’re saying go ahead, dive right in, live boldly for Christ in front of them that they actually are anticipating and expect that from you. Yes. Yes. Definitely.
Definitely. And And you never know how God is gonna work. I’ve been in friendships with Muslims where I’ll think, oh, wow. This could be, like, a 3 year, you know, marathon. And then within 3 months or even 3 weeks, I will see significant shifts and and very deep conversations and people even praying to receive Christ.
Wow. Receiving Christ. They don’t even yeah. They don’t even know that they’re actually crossing a line spiritually. They may not even call themselves a Christian initially, but they want Christ.
They want to experience this dynamic relationship with God. And so you just don’t know how things are going to play out. And so my advice is love them passionately and enter in and just roll through life. You don’t need to make a lot of changes in your schedule. Just, you know, invite them to participate as much as possible.
I I love how non programmatic you’re making it sound. It sounds so organic where this is just gonna be a natural fruit of you entering into life with them. Mhmm. And then them seeing that authentic authenticity in there in your life and how much you do love Christ and how that just kinda shows through in everything you do. And it kinda takes the I think it takes the pressure off for our listeners to have to be, like, scholars.
Have a dynamic presentation. Apologetics, you know, all these kind of things. But you’re just saying, hey. Live life. Feel what you feel with them.
Yeah. Show them Christ in your own life and and things to happen. It’s Redeeming the ordinary. Right. It really does.
Yeah. Because they like I said, they are curious, and they want to to see and learn. And, I’ve lived in Europe and and the Middle East and the US, and I I found that living in Paris, France would it was much tougher to talk to the French about the gospel Wow. Whereas the Muslim, because they are growing up with a worldview where they already have a respect and reverence for God. Most of them do.
Some are very secular, and they’re still searching themselves. But for the most part, they do. And so if you find those commonalities, and then you can show them how it what it looks like just in everyday life, you know, whether you’re dating or married or you have new children or you’re, you know, looking for a new job and just what that looks like. They find it very attractive. And I guess my last point would be, really challenge yourself to see them with eyes of love.
I I feel like too often we look and I’m not I’m not sure about your audiences, but at least my generation, growing up in the eighties nineties, you know, oftentimes, evangelism was seen almost like a project. You have to convince someone. We we appeal to reason and logic, and I am finding more and more that it’s really, again, about a relationship. Just as we have a relationship with God, we need to have a relationship with one another. And as I pursue love in my relationship with Muslims, I find that’s where I’m transformed, and then they are transformed.
And, so, yes, we need to understand theology and scriptures and, you know, their worldview, but but, ultimately, it’s the relationship that will point them to Christ. Yeah. This is becoming a theme, I think, with a few of the people that we’ve we’ve interviewed. I’m thinking, last week, we had, Matthew Stone on and he he was mentioning that, you know, apologetics can be really good, especially for the Christian to understand their own faith. But ultimately Yeah.
You’re not gonna find where Jesus kinda sits a person down and says you need to understand these 3 propositional truth statements about me. It’s more of a follow me relational model of evangelism and his his mindset was we’re to present ourselves and present Christ through us to people and to do it in that relational context. So it’s really it’s interesting that you’re kinda hitting on that same theme. Yeah. Very much so.
And, you know, Muslims are trained from early childhood to to basically debate any other worldview or Christianity. Right. So we don’t wanna start there. We don’t wanna start there. We wanna just start with sharing our lives and as those questions naturally surface, then, of course, we need to address them.
And and you said you mentioned that, the Muslims that you’ve met and known, feel things very, very deeply. Right? And so I think some of the things that, that we’re talking about here is maybe engaging the heart over the mind at at at at a certain level. Right? Because their minds have maybe been engaged with what they’ve been taught, as children, But when you engage the heart, it’s like a whole different element with, with them seeing how we love Christ and we live for Christ and we follow Christ and it’s not an obligation.
It’s really relational and Yeah. Yeah. So maybe it it seems, like it’s engaging a totally different aspect of of, of the person. So yeah. That’s really I agree.
And I’ve been told that. I’ve been told that, you know, Westerners from a from an Iranian Muslim, he’ll tell you Westerners approach life often with their head, and then a Muslim, you know, will approach life first from their heart and passion and conviction. And then, of course, you know, they use reason and logic. Right. But they start with with their kind of debt, I guess, or their heart.
Right. And and And so that’s even make their connect mhmm. That’s even that common ground, that we have if if we’re, these passionate Christians that really love the lord, have relationship with the lord. It it maybe hits common ground with these with these Muslims that, are very passionate, you know. So Yeah.
I think I think often they’re looking for for people of faith and they can share some commonality with someone that’s has a deep adoration for God and in Christ. And, Shireen, would you say that that’s, a starting point is just maybe talking about your own, love for God and and seeing where a Muslim is at and seeing where where they’re at with their own relationship with God? Challenges, and pain. Mhmm. But just very family volunteering, challenges and pain.
Mhmm. But just very family volunteering how you work through your challenges and pain and whether it’s going to God’s prayer or spending quiet time and praying and writing and reading and journaling and, you know, seeking advice from trusted people. Yeah. Just sharing your journey and then just kind of guiding that conversation gently and then ultimately to Christ. So how how is prayer, been received by your Muslim friends when you offer to pray with them?
I’m assuming pray with them for the things that they’re struggling with. Well, I found again, it’s if you have a relationship and it can happen very quickly in a matter of even just days, but if you’ve established a relationship and you have the privilege of, you know, entertaining them and and and get revealing your life and sharing and hearing from them. Then as you listen and the spirit moves you, then you can just offer to pray for different things. And I just just say, hey. You know?
Before we leave today, can I pray for you? And we’ll find a quiet place and, and pray for them. So, it’s not that different than how you would live your life with, your Christian friends. Good. So you’re saying so they they don’t they don’t mind?
No. It’s an act of love. It’s such an infinite, vulnerable, place to go with a friend. Not at all. Not at all.
See, I’ve only found it to be very positive. Now you have to earn that trust. And like I said, it can take a little bit of time. But, you know, if you find yourself in a situation, let’s say, someone’s a a student on a campus and they’re living on a dorm floor with someone or they have a neighbor across the street and they begin sharing about their lives and then that person, Mohammed or Leila or whoever, begins to reveal something difficult, then, yes, you can stop right then and say, you know, before we end our time or before I leave, can I just pray with you for a few minutes for this this concern? I think that’s a great point.
Like, I don’t know. That’s kind of a mark. Even in our relation western relationships would be if someone starts sharing their heart with you, you know, like, I think a Christian would automatically think, well, let’s go to prayer. So if a Muslim comes and you have that relationship and they’re sharing something, you know, that’s that’s deep or or or painful, that that’s a mark of trust. And yeah.
I mean, I think that’d be a great, you know, kind of a sign that, you know, yeah. Let’s let’s let’s let’s bring the Lord into this and and talk and and have prayer. So that’s that’s cool. Yeah. I think it’s hard for us sometimes to understand necessarily feel comfortable going there in prayer because we don’t wanna offend.
But it sounds like you’re saying that that Muslims, that’s the correct place to go. I think it’s very saying that that Muslims, that’s the correct place to go. I think it’s very possible. And, you know, more and more, a lot of the younger Muslims are very secular. So we have to, you know, again, assess the situation.
Right. And I’m you do that through body language. You look at their eyes. You look at their posture. You know, are they leaning in?
Are they leaning away from you? You know, you if you listen to their tone or their voice. And as you you assess these things and you feel like, you know, we’re at a comfortable place, then, yeah, you can definitely share your life and and and offer to pray or go deeper in your conversation. It’s it’s not something really difficult to do. It’s just really, you know, looking at that person saying, how can I serve them?
How can I, you know, be where they are rather than trying to have an agenda and take them to a place that we want them to go? Right. It’s out of Really thinking about that. Deep concern. Them.
Right. It’s like you really do want them to meet Christ, not just because you want a a notch on your belt because but you love them and your your heart’s breaking for them and yeah. I I I see what you’re saying. That’s great. Yeah.
I think Yeah. I think I read something recently from Carl Mandara saying something along those lines about reaching out in love and loving another person not just so that you can get a notch on your belt. Whether or not they respond or not doesn’t change the fact that we are to reach out in love. And genuinely loving somebody means sitting down with them and and joining them in their pain and and their life and their struggles and praying with them and just hoping that the Holy Spirit works in their lives. And I think it takes a lot of pressure off of us.
So I I find it really encouraging, Shereen, what you’re sharing. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I’m blessed to to talk with you.
And, yeah, it’s a privilege. It’s a privilege. And I find that actually reaching out to Muslims helps me to be more confident in reaching out to other people. You know? It’s like when you can overcome those fears and those barriers, you you realize that people are people, and Right.
They all need to be loved. We need to handle everyone carefully, and the the goal is really to honor the Lord and just be the best example we can be in loving others. Right. And that’s that’s kinda what our show is about. Like, we really wanna help Christians, in America that are hearing our podcast to really, like maybe, I mean, maybe they’re on the fence.
Maybe they’re like, yeah. I know I should, but they don’t have the heart for Muslims, and they they don’t they don’t see them as real people. Maybe they’re just buying into everything the media is saying. And we’re trying to get them off the fence and saying, no. No.
No. No. Christ is bigger than that. Christ is bigger than our nationality. Christ is bigger than than our, political stances, you know, our prejudices, and that that we have a responsibility as Christians to go beyond that.
And we try to portray that on the show, and sometimes it’s easy. Sometimes, you know, we’re just hoping for the best, you know, and yeah. Last thing, could you tell us a little bit about the Visual Story Network and what you and your husband are doing with that? Yes. Yes.
So we were actually serving with the Jesus Film Project 7 years in Southern California and, my husband was asked to take this new initiative which was, helping multiple ministries and churches learn how to use media more effectively for the gospel for them. And so he created this network where, literally hundreds of ministries and leaders collaborate on projects to use media more effectively. So whether it’s through the big screen or through, using your your your mobile phone, you know, how you create content for your phone. Right. And they use it for storytelling, film, documentaries, messaging, branding, whatever.
And so, we assist agencies in in developing media and getting them the training or we have a network of producers and directors, you know, to create content. That’s so amazing that you’re able to use technology to to further the gospel and and teaching other people how to do it. Yeah. We yeah. We love it.
We just did a story shop in LA 2 weeks ago with 48 different mission agencies and churches, and we taught them story structure content, and, you know, how to use story properly to share your message. That’s so cool. Yeah. I’m I’m excited about the idea of collaboration. It’s so hard these days to get people to collaborate on things, and it’s just neat that you have so many different mission agencies working together on this.
Yes. Yes. Exactly. And raising the bar, you know, really trying to improve our craft. And we really appreciate you, joining us today and and and taking time out of your busy schedule.
So thanks so much. And, we look forward to to doing this again and and getting to hear more about what the Lord is doing in your life and how he’s working through you, to share the love of Christ with Muslims. So hopefully, in the future, we can call on you and get you back on the show and we’ll be sure to offer, listener feedback to you as we get it. Very good. Thank you.
God bless you both. Have a great day. Alright. So that was the interview with Shareen Taber. Now that we’ve, we’ve settled the bet on how to pronounce, Shireen’s name.
It’s neither Shirin or Shirin. And it’s funny that she actually mentioned Shirin because I was like, oh, I’m really wrong. Well, I I spoke to her once on the on the phone earlier, and I think I did call her Shireen. I I bet she’s just been called that for so long. She probably just doesn’t correct people anymore and tells them the right the right name.
But Shereen does sound much nicer, I think. I thought I thought Shereen’s my last name’s Ki, but everyone calls me Kai because it’s spelled k I. Yeah. Kai. So I don’t I don’t even say anything.
But if they call me Harold, I’ll I’ll kind of call him out. I get called Kevin all the time. Honestly, I have no idea why. I think it’s because Trevor and there’s a, you know, the v sound in the middle of the name, and it’s just they remember Kevin or Travis. Anytime I think of Kevin Kevin, I think of the guy in the office.
Anyway, man, I really appreciate, Shareen’s perspective, though. I think she brought a perspective that, we haven’t heard from any of our other I was just interviewees. I was just thinking, like, it just felt different than some of these other guys that we’ve interviewed. Not that they’re any better. It’s just kind of a different feel.
I felt like it was, you know, extremely relational, very much more like, where other people just listening to this podcast, you listeners, listening to this podcast could just hear and access kind of her heart and what she was saying and how to how to live her, how to live your faith out in real tangible simple ways, and make a make a huge impact. I thought it was really cool. Yeah. The idea of being authentic and just, I don’t know. I was looking for, like, a magic recipe or something.
But when she started to break it down, it was basically saying, just live your life with people. Right. And that’s, actually more challenging than it sounds because everybody’s so busy. But I think that’s what she’s saying is we have to actually take Muslims to the DMV, help them get their license, go with them to the school and meet with the guidance counselor and do just the practical daily things that, they need help with. Right.
And and I think that has to be a conscious decision on on each of us because I know for myself, I have 5 kids. I’m, you know, I have I have ministry and then I do this part time. I’m busy, crazy, wanna hang out with my friends, have downtime. I I’m not thinking about my neighbor and living life with them so much, And it just has to be kinda like this conscious decision. And, you know, just to say, Trevor, I think you and your family do an amazing job at this, with the the Muslims next door.
Yeah. I actually do have Muslims in my neighborhood, and we see them. They come over all the time. It’s true. You know, we love them.
And they’ve even, did he invite you to kill a goat? Yeah. I’ve actually I’ve been part of more animal sacrifices than nuts. Nuts sacrifices. But yeah.
No. I know. It wasn’t a goat. It was a cow. I was, this is no joke.
It was about 5:30 in the morning and I got a phone call and it was my neighbor saying, hey, what are you doing today? I said, I’m going to work. And, he said, any any chance you can get the day off? And I thought, why? And I’m trying I’m thinking something’s wrong.
You know? It’s so early in the morning. And, he said, well, we, we bought a cow, and we want you to come with us. We bought a cat. Oh, and I was like, wait a second.
We’re gonna kill a cow? And they were like, yeah. And I thought, well, I think I could get off work for that. That’s kinda cool. And, so we we went and, well, actually, when they were talking about how we’re gonna kill it, I said, well, what do you need me to do?
And they said, we need you we need help getting it down because, you know, in in Islam, you have to bring the cow down to the ground before you can, you know, you have to actually slice the throat. There’s no shooting it. You have to you have to cut the throat and bleed it out for the Eid sacrifice, which we’ll talk about Eid sacrifice on another show. Many of you guys are wondering, what is the Eid sacrifice? Well, it actually has to do with with Abraham.
So anyway, we’ll talk about that another time. But this was an Eid sacrifice that was special because I had never sacrificed an animal that big. And so Yeah. That’s a big animal. Yeah.
So you can imagine, I show up, there’s 3 of us, and they’re like, here, you hold the chain. So I have this cow held, by a chain and I have it on video. We should put that in the show notes. No. I haven’t even seen this video.
Yeah. It it’s not. You know? I’ll preface it by saying it’s not for everybody. You know?
Right. Because you are killing a cow. Yes. Oh, and just to kinda give you listeners just to kinda some warning. We, Trevor and I are both hunters, but we hunt to feed our family, not just for we don’t like to kill things.
No. I love animals. Yeah. It’s not like that. You know?
So for so many of you guys are outraged. Don’t don’t think that way. We’re Trevor’s not excited about going to kill a cow just to kill a cow, but it’s an interesting experience. And to do this with his neighbors with Muslim neighbors is And I had never killed a cow. So I was kinda interested in just what would that process look like.
And are we gonna wrestle this thing down, hold it down? And, so I’m Cow tipping to a next level. Yeah. I was ready. But anyway, we got out there and a couple other guys showed up and the cow was incredibly cooperative.
You know, he didn’t know it was coming. I was like, what does that mean? He just, like, laid down for you? No. I mean, there’s still a technique, you know, if you’ve ever, like, wrestled a dog and you try to get him down, you take the one leg and pull it and then it falls.
I don’t know. Somebody’s maybe deeply offended right now at the idea of taking down a cow. That’s exactly what I’m thinking right now. Yeah. Someone’s offended.
But anyway, don’t be offended. This was all part of, you know, at some point, there was a conversation about Abraham and the sacrifice and, what was, God ransoming Abraham’s child from by providing a a sacrificial, substitutionary lamb, essentially. That’s what they’re remembering, which is directly related to the gospel. That helps me. Nonetheless, if you wanna see the video, we’ll put it in the show notes.
It was, it was an interesting experience, especially for the, rural farmer who probably had never met a Muslim up until this point in his life and suddenly But seldom a cow. Suddenly there are a dozen guys, a dozen dudes all dressed in full on, you know, celebratory garb and we all show up ready to wrestle a cow down and and cut its throat. And, he watched the whole thing. I mean, he was fascinated. So, anyway, it was a cultural experience for him, I’m sure.
Okay. And here’s another thing. Every time Trevor talks, I’m always thinking about something. Oh, this needs to be said. This needs to be said.
Because Trevor Chanigan just goes at it. Okay. So this means if you have a friend, neighbor next door that is a Muslim, it doesn’t mean that you’re gonna have to sell, slaughter a cow with him. Okay? But it does mean you might have the opportunity to slaughter.
There you go again. Okay. Listen. It doesn’t mean that. It it just means that you’re gonna live life together.
You’re gonna help them in encouragement. They’re gonna be an encouragement to you. Right? Aren’t your Muslim neighbors an encouragement to you? Absolutely.
I, you know, Shireen was talking about this in the interview that that there’s a certain aspect of the culture that she’s teaching her own children. My own children, I believe are going to be fuller, more rich culturally, humans because of their experience with these these Pakistani neighbors that I have. I mean, they they have known them since they were, you know, my youngest daughter was only a year old. And so I’ve known them for the last 4 or 5 years and we engage with them all the time and have great conversations about the world, about religion, about all kinds of things about Jesus. And, my daughter regularly will pray for them.
We pray for them as a family. We break bread with them, and our greatest hope is that they might one day know Jesus as savior. And something I noticed about mister Khan is that he knows that Trevor is is very, very different. He’s he doesn’t just kinda compartmentalize him as as someone that’s like the, you know, the general populace, kind of like what, Shereen was saying about Pamela. She knew that Pamela was different.
Uh-huh. And it was it’s really neat to hear mister Khan’s perspective on Trevor. He’s just like, man, anything that if you’re a friend of Trevor, I do anything for Trevor. That means I’ll do anything for you. And I’m just like, man, what kind of impact has Trevor had on this guy’s life just by living life together with this guy Yeah.
And his family. So it’s it’s it’s pretty neat. Yeah. I think Shereen really was bringing that that home, that idea of being authentic, living life with Muslims, and it was a it was a good challenge. I don’t know.
I we we don’t like to generalize, particularly on this show. But I’m almost wondering, is is maybe part of this the fact that that Shereen is a woman and women are typically more relational? I was just really challenged by her her views to be, man, we have to be more relational with Muslims. And so many times, I find people wanting to win an argument or make a point and Shereen and my wife is this way. She’s much more along the lines of just you just get to know people.
Right. And so, I don’t know. Maybe I’m, you know, off base there, but I was just really inspired by that. I I think you’re right. I mean, I I don’t think people are a checklist or a to do list.
Right? I think people, you know, it’s not like, okay. I need to go through, evangelism with them and and get them to pray the sinner’s prayer. It’s not even really liked at the beginning. Like, I think as a a relational approach, it’s more like, you know, I’m really gonna love them, have compassion for them.
I’m gonna pray for them, and and as opportunities arrive, I’m gonna, arise. I’m gonna take those opportunities. But knowing that God is gonna do this, you know, in in this person and not us not just take them through this this program, turn him out like a factory. Mhmm. Because I think sometimes we have that kind of mentality.
Still, I think we’re far farther away from that than we used to be as a church, in America, but I think that sometimes kinda comes up. I’m still stuck on just girls are more relational than guys. Right. You go to a party with your wife and, like, 5 minutes there, you know, they’re they’re talking about life issues and guys are still talking about football and that’s the depth of the conversation. Right.
You guys are like, I’m I’m let’s go home, honey. So anyway, yeah, I was encouraged. I really appreciated her views on culture, on looking at, the Iranian revolution, and just being able to connect with how a lot of Muslims probably feel today when they feel very stereotyped. They feel very alone, isolated. Just, the world is looking at them through a lens that probably doesn’t feel very good.
And so we have to we have to bring a different, answer like Pamela did for her. Right. Please check out Shareen’s book, The Muslim, Muslims Next Door. Next Door. Yeah.
And like you said, Amazon’s a great easy place to pick it up, and it’s on, Kindle. Yeah. We’ll we’ll add it in the show notes as well and put a link there. I got the book this morning. I got the eversion and, was just flipping through it, and it had some very good stuff and Yeah.
Very helpful. Very easy, enjoyable to read, and yeah. So, anyway, so that’s it for this week. Thank you so much for joining us. Join us next week.
We have another special guest. Yeah. We’re actually, next week, gonna be talking about the text, the Quran. And we’re gonna have a, what I would consider to be one of the foremost experts on the Quran, doctor Peter Riddell. And he’s gonna join us and discuss, the text and kinda look at it from a perspective of how can 2 people read the same text and come up with radically different views.
So, those of you that are more, the textual folks, be sure to tune in next week. So, thanks so much for listening. Check out the website truthaboutmuslims.com, and be sure to spread the word. We’ll see you next week