Here starts the auto-generated transcription of Muslims, Mission and Martyrdom with Dr. Jerry Rankin:
These is not irrelevant. It is a warning. Welcome to the Truth About Muslims podcast, the official podcast of the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media. Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. This week’s sponsor, as always, CIU, Columbia International University equips students with a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.
And Zwemer Center. Zwemer Center equips the church to reach out to Muslims with understanding, and the Zwemer Center has been around since 1979. So they notice themselves. Yeah. They know what they’re talking about.
Zwemer Center is, zwemer.com. That’s z w e m e r. I had I had to spell it because people were asking. Right. Yeah.
And ciu.edu. Alright. Welcome to the truth about Muslims, episode 9. With doctor Jerry Rankin, the executive director of the Zwemer Center For Muslim Studies. Yep.
He actually came into our studio and recorded with us, and, we had a great time. It was kinda funny though when, you know, we said studio, but it’s, you know Trevor’s. Attic. Yeah. Well, it it’s nice.
It looks nice. It sounds good. Hey, actually, let’s put in our shout outs that we need to post a picture. Yeah. No.
Yeah. Good idea. Get a picture get a picture of Rankin, buy the mic. No. No.
No. I do have that picture. I took that picture. Yeah. But I I thought we were recording this intro as though it was before the the interview.
Alright. That’s cool. Yeah, man. We should do that. Anyhoo, yeah.
We’ll put a picture of the attic so you guys can see the, the glory of the It studio. It I mean, even though I haven’t taken the picture, so so we say. But, like, it it does look really cool. But, anyway, okay. So the the title of this this week’s podcast is Muslims, Mission, and Martyrdom.
And it is, a real privilege to have Rankin in the studio because, 40 years with the IMB. In the last 17 years, he served as president. And so I don’t know about you, but I I can’t imagine 40 years with with one organization and then also 17 of those years in such a high position of leadership. Right. And then, of course, if you know anything about the international mission board, they are an extremely well run and, effective, I don’t know, arm and missions and and a blessing.
No. I remember when we were in YWAM. Right? We we did look up to the IMB. We were Well, first of all, because they paid their mission interest.
Right. We were always like, man, those guys are living large. We always used to joke like, how do we, how do we get on staff at the IMB? Right. I used to get a paycheck.
Because we were, like, eating potatoes, like, every day. That’s all we had. Yeah. That was awesome. Good times.
And they and, you know, they produced, good material, church planting movements with Garrison. Right. I remember studying that book before I even knew who Garrison was. Yeah. It was kinda weird.
Yep. And so, also, 23 of those, 40 years were spent on the field working in Asia, particularly in Indonesia, which is the largest Muslim country in the world. So wealth of knowledge from, from doctor Rankin. Right. And I actually been to Indonesia for a few weeks, and it was, it was it was a pretty it was a really neat experience.
And so it’s kinda cool to to hear that Rankin went to, to Indonesia and serve there. Wasn’t Indonesia the place where, you took that ferry ride? Yeah. Right. Is that right?
Right. We went from the I don’t know why we thought this was a good idea. I remember this story. But we took this we took this decided to take this ferry ride from us, from one city to the next and because we were just exploring. We didn’t really even have a plan.
This is Wait a minute. You mean YWAM didn’t have a plan? Right. Right. Right.
We just kinda went with the wind. We were just hoping that wind was the holy spirit. But, anyway, so we it worked for Paul. Right. And we got on this ferry, and it was like a double decker ferry.
And we we got on top of the roof. We thought we were smart because everybody else is packed into to the main cabin. And it was kinda crazy because it was so cramped. There was hundreds of people in this ferry, and I’m just thinking this is a bad idea. So we sat on the roof.
But in the middle of the night, there was a tropical storm. Usually, if the locals are doing something and you think, hey. Right. They haven’t thought about this. Why aren’t they sitting on top?
There’s probably a reason. Right. Because, you know, like, you’ll see, like, in India people riding on top of buses Yeah. I’ve done that. On top of the bus or on top of the train.
I thought I would defy the laws of gravity by riding on top. If it went off the side, I could just jump at the last second and survive. Yep. That was actually my strategy. Yeah.
Well, if you if you if you known Trevor as long as I have, you know that he’s telling the truth. No. I’m serious. I know. That’s what I’m saying.
I did it in Nepal too. But anyway okay. Anyway but the point is that, tropical storm hit, and it was nuts. It was, like, crazy, just, like, flooding and waves, and all of us were trying to get jammed in there. And, basically, it was a long ferry ride.
It took us all throughout the night. I think the next morning, we, actually, we didn’t really sleep. But the next morning as the sun was rising, we started to kinda get into calm waters and, and and and pull into shore, but it was, like, the worst night of my life and and and terrifying at the same time. But, yeah. Yep.
You know what though? Those are those those provide good stories. Right. There’s there’s some other stories in in that in the midst of that trip that I’d like to say, but I’m not so sure if our listenership wants to hear it. No.
I’m I’m thinking of that that night even here in Colombia when we went fishing and the battery on my boat died, we were about 4 4 miles from the dock, and everybody’s like, what are we gonna do? And I’m like, I’d have a good story. Yeah. And And we paddled all the way back 4 miles. No.
No. No. No. You say paddle, but the the listeners are thinking of a a proper paddle. This was not a proper paddle.
This was one of those emergency you can store. You can you can break down into little a little paddle. I mean, it wasn’t very much. We had to lean over the bow of the boat and paddle, like, back achingly for hour like, 2 hours, I think, we had to paddle. I think it was more like 3.
It was about 2 AM by the time we got back to the dock. But, nevertheless, I had a paddle, which I think everybody was pleasantly surprised by. Right. There was this one time that I was fishing with a really good friend of Trevor and me, And, we got stuck in low tide in the intercoastal. And so he had this great idea of using the anchor.
No. We were both there for that. I remember this. Yes. So he would fling the anchor out into the mud and it would stick and then he pull us Yeah.
Towards the the anchor and then do it again. But he at one point, he had, you know, overcompensated and flew off the edge of the boat. Forgot to let go of the rope. He went and threw it and was still holding on with the rope with the other hand, and it flung him out of the boat into the water. Right.
It was freezing cold. And it wasn’t much water. And it was a bunch of mud. And, praise God he didn’t get cut up on those oyster shells. They get they’re they get they’re they’re like razor blades.
Yeah. I’m I’m just saying boat stories. You know, at first, it seems tragic, but then you’re like, hey, this is gonna be a good story. This is aside from the point, but we need to go fishing. Yeah.
No doubt. No doubt about that. Anyhoo, Jerry Rankin. Oh, Jerry Rankin. Hey, Jerry.
Yeah. So here we go. Let’s, let’s go ahead and get to the interview with Jerry Rankin. Alright. Okay.
We have a guest in the studio today, doctor Jerry Rankin. Jerry, it’s so great that you’re with us today. Thank you, Trevor. It’s great to share with you. Topic for today is gonna be Muslims’ mission and martyrdom.
And so we’re hoping, Jerry, I know you’ve had a a wealth of experience, working all around the globe and with all different religious people groups, but Muslims in particular. Even your early career was started in, the largest Muslim country in the world. Correct? Well, it was. We spent, quite a number of years in Indonesia, which has the largest population of any Muslim country in the world.
But contrary to the understanding and perception of many people, later, I served as area director for South and Southeast Asia with our International Mission Board work. And the 4 largest countries, with Muslim population are in that part of the world, in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and, India. And so there’s a vast diversity in in Islam. And what we see happening in one area of the world, particularly in the Middle East, is not necessarily relevant and applicable to the cultural upheaval and things that are happening in other areas. Yeah.
We talk a lot about the media on our show. And it just seems like, as far as the Muslim population goes, the it’s always the Middle East. And so it’s interesting that you kinda come with this different perspective. A very important component in studying and understanding Islam is to recognize the diversity of all the different sects and segments. In fact, even in our media, we see the, the conflicts between Shiite and Sunnis.
It’s hard to understand. It’s so violent and committed to the destruction of others that they consider heretics. And that’s not against outsiders. That’s within Islam. And so, we can’t see it as a monolithic religious system.
I think we were talking earlier before the show, Jerry, when you were mentioning, you know, kinda in the his in a in a historical context, you kinda mentioned that you see Islam as being, you know, one of the last great barriers to accomplishing the great commission. Could you elaborate a little bit on that? Well, it has been an awesome experience serving as president of the International Mission Board and having personnel serving in about a 190 countries among people groups all over the world to get a global overview of how God is at work. And when, the Soviet Union disintegrated after the Berlin Wall fell and began to disintegrate, we, you know, missionaries, volunteers flooded into an area of the world that had been prohibited of religious freedom for generations. We’ve witnessed an unprecedented harvest emerging in China that is just absolutely phenomenal considering it’s still a repressive culture that persecutes and forbids Christianity and yet something is feeding the growth there.
But when all of this has begun to happen as we move into the 21st century, we recognize the the remaining formidable barrier to global evangelization was the the Muslim world across Northern Africa, Middle East and Central Asia and, just the areas that have been subjugated over the centuries by Islam. And it’s amazing. We can’t fully grasp or understand. But even after 9:11, beginning of 21st century, people were reflecting that our world has changed never to be the same again. And part of that change is to just open areas in the Muslim world to an openness, to the gospel.
Our personnel said friends, neighbors all across this part of the world were asking questions that reflected a search for hope and security that their religious traditions no longer provided for them. And so we’re seeing an unprecedented harvest, I think, reflected in what we’ve known recently is the Arab Spring, just a social upheaval, you know, from the repressive regimes that, have been known. And it stings it’s still volatile. We don’t know where it’s going to play out, but we just sense that God is breaking that last formidable barrier and opening this world to the gospel. Gospel.
Well, when we think about it in the context of, say, the Soviet Union, for example, you mentioned the this the dismantling of the Soviet Union really opened the doors to the gospel. I would assume that before the Berlin, Wall fell, the gospel. I would assume that before the Berlin, wall fell, that people saw that as an impossible task, that there would ever be movements to Christ in these areas that are now the former Soviet Union. Have we seen much happen in that in that in those areas? And should we have hope from what we’ve seen historically through the fall of the Soviet Union in light of what’s happening today?
Oh, yes. I I was a part of, a global strategy and long range planning beyond the 20th century. And we were doing some very significant contingency plans, but never did they even include the possibility of people on the ground in these countries. And what I see happening in the world, I’ve just gained an awesome sense of God’s providence that we aren’t making it happen through Western diplomacy or through our mission strategies. God’s moving in power and providence as sovereign over the nations, in creating the upheaval that is providing an open door that’s unprecedented for the gospel to be made known.
Yeah. In the last few weeks, we’ve had, doctor Dave Cashin kinda come in and share what happened with the Iranian revolution and Mhmm. How that opened people’s hearts to the gospel. And then, of course, last week with, doctor Matthew Stone, kinda saying the same things. It’s it’s really interesting to see how, even with terrorism like ISIS is causing Muslims to kinda rethink what they believe, and is it really at the heart of Islam?
They’re they’re really actually, bringing these things to question. So the things that you’re saying seem to resonate with what our others other interviewees are saying. It’s pretty neat. Well, in past years, I I heard a number of people say that 2 people that God used probably more than anyone to open to the gospel was Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran and Saddam Hussein. That’s really funny because doctor Dave Kachen, he said Khomeini and, what was the other one, Howard?
Mao Zedong. And he said, 2 best church proto evangelist out there. So now we got Saddam Hussein on the list as well. But elaborate. But it’s like the scripture said, God said, pharaoh is my servant.
I mean, he was a pagan king, but he was just a puppet being used for God’s plan and in his providence through his people, Israel. And so, they’re revealing the heart of Islam and is creating disillusionment among massive population groups Mhmm. That are now searching for truth. Just just one illustration in talking to a secret believer, a university student in Afghanistan made the comment, I believe a third of the students at the University of Kabul are secretly reading and studying the Bible, looking for truth because they’re so disillusioned with what their traditional religion represents by the Taliban and what they’ve experienced there. You know, that that’s amazing because when we think of what we see in the media, regarding Kabul, Afghanistan, it’s so discouraging and it seems so hopeless, but it seems that as God has done historically, he is using the wrath of man to praise him.
Well, Haggai 2/22 says, God will shake the heavens and earth, overthrow the thrones of kingdoms, and destroy the powers of nations. We need to look beyond the headlines and what is obvious and see God moving to fulfill his mission. And just the global chaos, the war, the ethnic violence, natural disasters, economic uncertainty. God is using that to turn the hearts of people to look for truth that can be found only in Jesus Christ. Yeah.
I think that’s a perspective that we need to continually be reminding ourselves of because if we’re only kind of accepting our theological, you know, cues from what we see on television or maybe what we read in a newspaper. We can just find ourselves in despair and feeling like, is God at work? Right. We’re losing. That’s what it looks like on the media.
Well, to the contrary, we are seeing progress as that is unprecedented across the Muslim world. And, a lot of this is not publicized and cannot be really, communicated openly. But those of us who’ve been on the part of mission leadership on the inside. It’s been documented by David Garrison’s book, A Wind is Blowing Through the House of Islam, that is documented over 70 movements to Christ, in the last 20 or 30 years. That’s amazing.
We have, we were hoping to get Garrison on the show coming up in March, to discuss that book. But, I I mean, it’s just so encouraging to see that there are movements because for so long, I think the church has been discouraged thinking nobody is is or that the Muslim world is resistant. But when we look at it in context, it’s like sending 1 missionary to a 1000000 people and then calling them resistant. And so you were pretty instrumental in in opening, at least from the Southern Baptist Convention’s eyes to the Muslim world and really kinda refocusing some emphasis there. Could you tell us kinda how the IMB has had an impact?
I mean, not specifics, I know, but an impact in reaching out to Muslims during your time as president. Well, there has been an evolution of of strategy that it is remarkable. When I went to the mission field, years ago, the basic approach was to follow response. Mhmm. You sought out pockets of responsiveness, and that’s where you concentrated your resources.
Missionaries would go to open fields where they could openly proclaim the gospel. Mhmm. And, you kinda shied away from where where there was resistance, where there was antagonism and response. And it’s kind of embarrassing now, but I think in each era of missions history, people did what they felt like was the right thing, and God used it. He laid foundations for further expansion as we evolved.
But it’s really been in the last, 15 or 20 years that there’s been a focus on unreached people groups. Why are there vast segments of the world that have yet to hear even the name of Jesus that have no Christian resources, no bible, no missionaries engaging them. Their reasons of that has happened, and we’re now recognizing those barriers and through strategic access and and, more innovative strategies are finding ways to access these people groups with the gospel. And that’s certainly been the challenge, in the Muslim world where they’re both, government restrictions, for for Christians Mhmm. In those countries.
Certainly, missionaries, stereotypical missionaries that would come in to proselytize and share the gospel is is perceived by the missionary role, as well as just religious hostility that’s created by the cultures there. The the dangers, the risk involved. And currently, God is just leading people who are willing to lay their lives on the line and take the risk and and use creative strategies to gain access. And the the critical the critical factor in, in global evangelization is gaining access through, an incarnational witness. You can actually be fairly restrained as far as public proclamation, But in living out the gospel, people can see a difference that Christ makes and, I I think that is what is happening in many parts of the world, to open new doors to the gospel.
I think you dropped a a couple of bombs in that that statement that you made. The first one, I just wanna reemphasize for our listeners’ sake. You say there are large populations that have never heard of the name Jesus Christ. In 1995, at a global consultation on world evangelization in Seoul, Korea, it was by the AD 2000 and Beyond Movement, researchers identified more than 2,000 ethnic, linguistic, cultural people groups that had not yet had access to the gospel. And I think what’s so amazing is that we we label them sometimes as resistant to the gospel, but you’re making the case that it’s not that they’re resisting it.
They don’t even have access. Governments might resist missionaries coming in, but the people themselves have never even heard the gospel and had a chance to resist it. Well, this revolutionized the focus of evangelical mission agencies. And when I retired 4 years ago, in 2,010, that number was down to only 41 remaining people groups with more than a1000000 population That’s amazing. That had not been engaged with the gospel.
Only about 300 with a 100000 population. So most of the unengaged unreached people groups were what we would call micro people groups, the smaller isolated people groups. But it’s phenomenal, the progress that is being made in getting the gospel to every tribe, people, and nation today. What’s amazing is that, Samuel Zweymer in 1911 says, in this 20th century, there should be no unoccupied fields. He’s talking about the unoccupied fields of the world being places where had never been.
And he was saying this over a 100 years ago and trying to open the eyes of the church to say, hey, guys. There shouldn’t be a place on earth where the gospel isn’t, and we’re starting to see the fruit of that sort of, prophetic call a 100 years ago being fulfilled today. Well, the world is changing in terms of communication. Just electronic media, Internet communication is kind of hard to barricade, any part of the world from exposure to the gospel now. But it’s an emerging world, even in many Muslim countries that are moving into the modern world and have vast needs just in terms of education, humanitarian needs, medical needs, business, consultation to become a a part of the global community.
And there are people, equipped to bring value added to their societies. And, should not Christians be a part of responding with their skills and the experience to provide these needs and in doing so, live amongst people allowing them to see the presence of Christ in their lives. That that was this this actually, the second bomb that I think you you dropped. Nice. Nice.
About the the creative communication. Is that kind of what you’re talking about? With the gaining access, I think. Right? The the creative access of finding ways that yeah.
These places are still closed to missionaries as as we know them, And you can understand that. And so are there other ways for those who are Christians to build relationships, you know, and to to live among these people. If I could just give, an illustration, one of our our workers who, I’ll not even identify the reason he was there, whether business or humanitarian or work or whatever. Just keep it vague. That, or where it was.
But it was a very, place fanatical Muslim country. And, after a couple of years, one of his workers came to him and said, I’ve been working for you for 2 years now, and your life is different. It’s different from anyone I’ve ever known, even the religious leaders in our community. I’ve never known anyone that was patient, kind, compassionate, as you. And I’ve been trying to figure it out, and I finally decided it’s probably because you’re a follower of Jesus.
Can you tell me how I can be a follower of Jesus and have that kind of life? Well, it’s a situation you could easily be entrapped into witnessing, but he’d known this guy. He felt like he was sincere. He took the risk, explained the claims of Christ, the plan of salvation, and the the young man was very receptive. But the worker shared with him, said, now, if you do this, if you pray to receive Christ and become a follower of Jesus, you know you’ll probably be killed.
In telling me this, he, explained that he had known 6 local believers that had all been martyred within 6 months of proclaiming faith in Christ. And the young men replied, I know, but this is the way and I must follow it. And so there’s something compelling about the gospel that lived out in the midst of people that do not know the hope, the love, the transformation that Christ can bring to a life that is is a magnet to draw people to Christ. And so a lot of our people around the world are discovering just their very presence can give them a credibility for for a witness. That’s that’s amazing.
Something that’s kind of, seems like a seems really, like, upfront in my mind is that we don’t we don’t hear these kind of things in news. We don’t actually hear this kind of stuff in our churches. What would you say, is the reason for that? Well, I think we tend to shy away from that. I think, it’s not necessarily that we preach a prosperity gospel, You know, we don’t live in a situation that, calls on us to lay down our life, for our faith.
That’s not gonna grow you a very big church if you start preaching like that. But, you know, there there’s something about, that gives an authenticity to our faith when you do have to suffer for it. And I suspect that our society is is rapidly moving in that direction where it may not cost us of our our life, but just our reputation, our credibility, the attitudes toward others, of what we have to do to make a stand for Christ. But if we’re going to reach the Muslim world, it is going to take people willing to to lay down their life, for Christ and take the risk, to be involved. Because it’s real among believers who are following him, overseas.
And we’ve seen, a pattern of of those who have if taken that risk and who have given their lives. And invariably, it results in, a tremendous, witness and in gathering for Christ. Well, I think it’s it’s unfortunate, but we’ve we’ve lost or maybe we have never had, I don’t know, a theology of suffering, here in the United States. Because when we think even of the persecuted church, oftentimes, we’re praying that they would be delivered from the persecution and and so on and so forth. And then when you hear from these pastors in in Nigeria or China and they’re saying, well, we’re not saying to pray for the persecution to stop necessarily.
We’re actually asking that we would endure through this because God is using it, and he’s growing his church through this persecution. And that’s just a perspective I don’t think that we we often have. Well, we look at the, particularly the Muslim world and other areas as well that are unreached with the gospel. And we see the barriers. We see the risk, the the dangers that are involved.
And we want to place the blame on those governments or religious hostility or cultures. Mhmm. But the real reason is our lack of willingness to take the risk, and pay the price of what it takes to get the gospel to them. John Piper once made this statement. There’s absolutely no place on the globe that you cannot go and openly proclaim Jesus Christ if you’re not concerned about ever coming back.
Yeah. I mean, it may cost you your life, but you can go and plant the gospel. Well, the I mentioned Samuel Zweymer from a 100 years ago saying that, there should be no unoccupied fields. And he goes on to say in this book, that the reason there are unoccupied fields is that the church lacks the conviction that it needs to be done. Because once we are dominated by a conviction that a thing must be done, we will stop at nothing until it’s accomplished.
So his point was we need to wake up. His issue wasn’t so much Islam. It was the biggest concern for him was a church that didn’t even have a conviction to reach out to Muslims. Exactly. The problem lies at the feet of the church and its lack of commitment and zeal for getting the gospel to others.
We’ve diminished, the conviction concerning lostness and the eternal destiny of those Mhmm. Who haven’t rejected Christ, but have just never had an opportunity to hear of his saving grace. And that responsibility has been given to us by our Lord. Now, this seems a little bit off topic, but I was just wondering, just as a as a pastor listening I’m a youth pastor, by the way. And, how do you get our churches how do I get my church to engage more, not just in, you know, the the missions to Mexico and the summer trip or or something like that, but, actually, to go towards, a Muslim people group or, to try to reach out in that in that type of way?
As a as a mission director, how how have you seen churches develop into a mission mindset church? Mhmm. Well, that’s a a interesting question because you don’t have to go overseas to to reach Muslim population groups. Mhmm. That’s true.
I live in a small college town, actually a Christian college in in the South. In the last 2 years, we’ve had a 130 students from Saudi Arabia enroll at that Christian college. Woah. Wait a second. I I I I asked You’re saying at a Christian at a Christian university.
Yes. So what’s the draw? Well, I I asked him. I said, now you could study anywhere in America. You you’re getting fully paid.
Yeah. Money is not an issue. Anywhere issue. Why would you come to a Christian college in a little little town in the South? His response was, my father is very conservative and he felt like this would be a good moral environment if I were going to study in America.
Never mind is Christian. You know, they recognize, okay, I’m going not going to be confronted with what they perceive is going on in all of the world in this carnality of American universities. So what an opportunity. Fortunately, I see the churches rallying to study Islam, to understand how to converse with these students, to identify with them, or opening their homes to to hospitality. But that’s not happening among churches by and large, around the country.
We have a paranoia when we see people from the Middle East and from the Muslim world. We we close our hearts and and homes to them. We don’t know how to relate to burger clad women, you know, that we see in the marketplace and fail to realize they’re people just like us. They have children. They have families.
They’re concerned for their education, for their needs. They’re longing for friendships. And how hard is it to to just be a friend to a foreigner living in our community? I’m reminded of the second chapter of Acts. Jesus, 40 days earlier, just told his disciples to go and make disciples of all nations.
And we read in in acts 2 verse 5 that there were devout people from every nation under heaven gathered in Jerusalem. And we know what happened on the day of Pentecost. They heard the gospel in their own language. What did they do? They went back to their places, taking the gospel with them.
It was like Jesus was saying through the holy spirit, this is what I was talking about. Don’t you get it? You know, you didn’t go, so I’m bringing them to you. And I think he’s must be saying that to the church today as well. You know?
Okay. If you’re not going, I’m bringing him to you. Now what you gonna do about it? Well, that’s the tragedy though because what I’ve seen is there is a large part of the church that is actually very discouraged by the immigrant community coming in. And they’re not responding in love.
They’re actually, you know, recoiling in fear when they see Muslims. And instead of, you know, celebrating and and the fact that through God’s providence, Muslims are coming here, a place where they can easily hear the gospel. The church is actually going in just the opposite direction. Well, if we truly believe the gospel and the great commission mandate, the lostness of those without Christ, that there was hope only in Jesus Christ, we would count it as a blessing and an opportunity. But I think this reflects an indictment on the church of why we have failed after 2 millennium of, planning the gospel in the Muslim world, and so many people yet to have access to it.
Well, it also brings up, you know, we talk about acts, 1 8 that they would be witnessed in as in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. And then we get to acts 8 one, and we see a great persecution break out among the church, and the church is scattered to the ends of the earth. And so so many times, I think, we have a plan about how God is going to accomplish, his mission or maybe just be all about us. And then sometimes God’s plan might mean difficulty for us. It might mean persecution for us.
It might mean even something as serious as as martyrdom. Well, we we have seen more, missionary personnel martyred, in the 21st century than certainly in our organization had had seen for probably the previous century put together. And, we have to be careful how we describe martyrdom. There are those who would say that any Christian that that dies due to hostility toward their faith is a martyr. And I think that’s that’s valid.
People living for Christ, firm in their conviction and their faith and dying for it is a martyr. But there’s another level of which people actually are killed because of their overt witness in seeking to take the gospel into, forbidden territories, where where there is hostility toward their message. In the, a year after 9 11 in 2,002, we had 3 of our missionaries in a Middle Eastern country working at our, mission hospital who were killed. And, later when the, murderer was, was got and indicted, he confessed that they were expressing such a compassion for patients that they were impressing them in a positive way toward their And he just determined we’ve got to get rid of this, influence that is, you know, coming into our our community. So they weren’t even being verbal?
Well, not ex not overtly, but people who who came to the hospital, who knew them in the community, knew why they were there. Why would they come from America to an isolated, remote place like that and minister to them? And personnel had been there for 35 years without seeing an open breakthrough of people coming to the gospel. But they knew why they were there. It was their faith.
It was, being a disciple of Jesus Christ. And they weren’t overt in overt in seeking to proselytize, but people had to assess and evaluate what this meant, the kind of people that they were. And when these 3 are hospital administrator, a surgeon, and a nurse were all murdered, it resulted in a tremendous influx to the gospel because people realize this one just a religion they chose to follow. It was something that they were not only living out in their life, but it was something worth dying for. People in the world want something like that, that is meaningful.
And in the next few years, we saw over 200 Muslim backgown believers baptized there after not seeing any results in 35 years. And so as Tertullian said, you know, the blood of the martyrs is the the foundation, the seed of the church. Mhmm. Yeah. And we’re we’re seeing that all over the world and not through just, missionary martyrs or westerners that die for their faith, but there are far more local martyrs that are bearing that same powerful testimony.
Well, that’s what I was gonna ask. I mean, you said in the last 35 years, we’ve we’ve seen, more martyrs than in the entire was it the century before? And I’m thinking about something I read. I believe it was in the international journal Frontier Missions Missions, basically saying that more Muslims have come to Christ in the last 35 years than the entire effort of missions combined. And so I’m thinking, is there a correlation?
And I think you answered the question with your, the Tertullian quote, between martyrdom mission and movements. Well, that’s true. And it’s it’s not just the testimony of missionary martyrs, but local martyrs who could easily recant their faith. I mean, when when you can become a Muslim, simply by quoting the shahadat, how easy it is to just quote the shahadat and deny your faith, and you live. Life returns to normal.
They can’t understand why Muslim background believer will not deny his faith. Why is there such powerful life changing conviction that they’re willing to die? And when they do die for their faith, it’s something that, that draws people to have to consider what they believed in and consider for themselves. Well, I think it challenges you in your own belief. Do I believe what I believe is strongly as that person?
So if you’re a Muslim or a Hindu or Buddhist or atheist and suddenly you see someone else laying down their life for their faith, it it would draw anybody into that place of what did they believe so strongly, and do I have that same belief? And if not, should I consider what they believe? Exactly. And and we need to realize as the gospel more and more penetrates, the Muslim world in in various locations, through whatever means God is using, whether electronic media, exposure to a a westerner who’s there and a creative access witness, or, through dreams or visions that open their heart to consider the claims of Christ or explore and try to find out who this person is and what he means. God is working in manifold ways to make himself known.
And out of his passion and his goal to be exalted among the nations and all peoples. But when talking about talking about persecution or even, martyrdom, a lot of people don’t realize it’s not official, government persecution and restrictions, quiet subtle ways among one’s own family and in community. Mhmm. Because most of these societies are communal families. They they decide things as a community.
It’s a shame and honor society where you don’t do something that will shame your family. And to become a Christian, everyone has lost face, and they have to do something about it. And so a lot of the, Muslim believers are actually killed by their own family to preserve the honor of who they are as as Muslims. And yet for them to be willing to die for their faith, has really contributed to the movements that we’re seeing to Christ in places all over the world. Well, there’s definitely the the sense that there’s accounting of the cost in in a way that I don’t know that I personally can understand just the amount that they’re willing to to take on in following Christ.
Well, it it’s it’s not only the willingness to count the cost, but I think of our diminishing the power of the gospel itself. It’s something we grow up with. It’s so easy to just intellectually embrace the the truth of we’re sinners, that Christ saved us, to place our belief in him. It there’s something different in in the Muslim world. I still just stand amazed how years ago in our initial experiences in Indonesia, why someone would respond to my witness and become a believer in Christ, knowing that they would be rejected by their family, they would lose their job, their life would be threatened, they’d be ostracized by their community.
What is it that would compel them to turn their back on their tradition, their religion, their society? There was no explanation except the power that indwells the truth of the gospel. And not everyone is going to respond, not everyone was saved, but God’s Spirit is at work in the hearts of people. He’s revealed himself through creation. He’s revealing himself through dreams and visions.
He’s revealing himself through incarnational witness of those who followed Christ. And we need to be, aware of how making the gospel known, the power that’s inherent in the message itself. Right. I it’s kind of interesting because I think most people would think when they think about martyrs, they would think about missionaries, western missionaries going overseas and getting martyred. But you’re kinda talking about these unsung heroes that have come to faith and still refuse to recant.
And I think you had mentioned before we had, we started recording, you’d mentioned how many more, of these unsung heroes are being martyred than our western missionaries. Oh, far more. All all across the Muslim world, as well as in in China and, India and other places. Do you do you think, Jerry, that this is gonna continue to be, the process in seeing the Muslim world come to know Christ? We’re gonna continue to see more and more suffering of the church.
I’m I’m almost wondering, is there a spiritual dynamic here? Because Christ seems to indicate that suffering isn’t something that might come but something that we should be prepared for and actually expect. And in your kind of studies of spiritual warfare, I know you have a book on that. Is there a spiritual component here with, the evil one and and the great commission? Well, this merits another discussion that is quite extensive.
But there’s no question of the the ultimate nature of resistance to the gospel, the battle for the nations is one of spiritual warfare. Satan is jealous for god’s glory. This was the essence of his his fall, to be exalted, like the his throne on high. And, Satan, you know, is is defined as the lord of the air, the principalities, the powers of darkness, dominions of darkness. What amazes me in in the temptations experience of Jesus when he showed him all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain, he said, if you’ll bow down and worship me, I’ll give you all the kingdoms of all the dominions, because it’s been handed over to me.
And what intrigues me is that, of course, Jesus did not succumb to that temptation, though he had come to claim the kingdoms of the world for the kingdom of God. But what intrigues me is he never contradicted the right of Satan to make that claim because the reality is wherever Christ is not known, the countries, the people groups, the dominions of the world are the dominions of Satan living in darkness. And he’s not going to just simply roll over and relinquish the kingdoms of the world to become the kingdoms of our Lord. So it’s a spiritual warfare. Yeah.
He’s involved in godless totalitarian governments that would prohibit a Christian witness and persecute, witnesses. He’s involved in hostile religious systems that keep people in darkness. He’s the one that creates the barriers that create the fears, you know, and our lack of conviction and willingness to go in obedience to where Christ has sent us. And so, victory is going to be won, And we need to step up and claim that victory and, be obedient to what Christ has told us to do. You know, I’m reminded of, I believe it’s numbers 14 when, they’re commanded to go into the land and they come back and they hear the report from the the spies in Joshua, Caleb, Moses and Aaron are just so discouraged because the people refused to go into the land.
We are grasshoppers in our own eyes and they have all of this plan to go back to Egypt. And when the glory of the lord descends, the question is how long how long will these people despise me? How long will they not, believe in me? They lack faith. They they don’t remember what the lord did in Egypt.
And the response basically is I’m gonna wipe them out and give them pestilence and raise Moses up in a new generation. And Moses pleads with the lord and actually gives, the Lord’s glory is kind of the, you know, what will the people in Egypt say. And the Lord relents from destroying the people, but they miss out on the inheritance of the land and an entire generation is bypassed. And when they do eventually go into the land, you see just this amazing blessing and that God could have given it to that other generation. And sometimes I look around at the church here in the west and I feel like, are we being bypassed for another generation?
Is it gonna be other parts of the world that carry the gospel to the Muslim world? It it is tragic that we are forfeiting the privilege and opportunity of being a part of what God is doing in our world today, to fulfill his mission. I do see God moving in a younger generation that I think has the passion to go to the ends of the earth, to take the risk, to lay their lives on the altar for the sake of of the kingdom of God. But I’m convinced that it will not be the western church and missionaries, but God is raising up his people in third world countries like India and China and in local communities among Muslim background believers that will be the ones that will eventually touch every nation, tribe, and language with the gospel and fulfill the great commission. And and we were talking earlier about some things that are happening.
I mean, I’m sure maybe some listeners are thinking, what does he mean dreams and visions? But the reality is Muslims are having dreams and visions of Christ, sometimes apart from any missionary witness such as in Algeria. And we were talking earlier and and looked it up to confirm it, that that Raymond Law was, stoned on the beaches of Algeria. And here we are, so many years later and wondering, is it possible that even through the suffering of Raymond Law who dies on the boat ride back, that the people could still be having an effect of the power of that willingness to lay down a life and dreams and visions are now coming. I don’t know.
There’s just some connection between the suffering of the church and then the later fulfillment of the great commission. Well, it it is strange to us, and we shouldn’t, presume that dreams and visions are enough to bring people to saving faith in Christ. But what it does, it creates an an, an inquisitiveness, a desire to know it breaks down the barriers that enables them to seek the truth and be open to even exploring the claims of God’s word. And I I’ve met so many, they had no idea until I began to share with them the gospel. I said, I think this has something to do with a dream I once had, and began to describe what was obviously an image of Christ speaking to his heart.
And, you know, and that’s what allowed his heart to be opened. Before, we started the interview, you were sharing a story. You just recently returned from India from 3 weeks in India, and there was a a young man you encountered that kinda brought you back to, some early experiences with persecution. Could you could you share that story here? Well, years ago, I was training, church planters in India, and a young man who was a village evangelist was following up a witness in a village that was very fanatical, Hindu village.
And they, expressed their antagonism, forbid him to come back, and, made it clear that he wasn’t welcome, threatened his life. But he kept going back. And, eventually a group of thugs attacked him on the the road into the village, beat him with clubs and chains. And I happened to get in India, and he was in the hospital bandaged in traction, just really severely injured. And I asked him after what had happened to him, was he willing to continue his ministry and to go to the villages?
And he just smiled and said that he was just amazed that he was doing anything worthy of suffering for his Lord and said, I look forward to continuing to share the gospel in places like this. Well, he went back to that village after he was healed, and they were so astounded that he would come back after being beaten that they realized that he had such a compelling message that they must hear it and needed to hear what he had to say. Well, eventually, the village was reached. The church was started. I was back there this year visiting with a group of local pastors.
This pastor was there, now retired, is older. His son was one of the church planners I was meeting with, and we were fellowshipping, had a reunion after 15 years. And he said, do you remember that village where I got beaten and a church was eventually started? I said, yes. He pointed to a young man across the room.
You see that tall young man? He is the the pastor of that church. And then he said and he was one of the young men that beat me that day. See, I don’t think we hear stories enough. I mean, for me, like, it just makes me really excited about what God is doing, fills me with faith and hope to to actually go and do the things that, I think God has called us to do.
But I don’t know. In this day and age, you would think with all of the technology, we would be able to have testimonies just pouring in, throughout the church to to get us all excited to to go do what God’s called us to do. Because I’m so reminded whenever you’re talking about these stories that God is with us. Yeah. God’s doing amazing things.
Yeah. Well, I’ve had the privilege of traveling this recent trip to India, but all across the the Middle East and Northern Africa, and especially into unprecedented pace. And it’s not without cost, both of, missionaries who go as well as national believers. But, god’s spirit is moving in unprecedented ways. Yeah.
I think we have to be more proactive about seeking out to find where god’s moving, and I think we would be more encouraged. And, Jerry, as we as we come to a close, could you just give us, maybe a word of encouragement for the church for people listening? How should we view what’s happening in the world today with Muslims? How should we, see, God’s hand moving? You’ve seen a lot of these places.
You’ve been to many of the Muslim countries of the world, if not all. What should we take away from this that would give us great hope in trusting God? Unfortunately, I I’m in a lot of churches. And I I would it it it’s very much a generalization. But our American churches are very self centered and ingrown.
It’s about us, our programs, meeting the needs of our families and our community and gathering and worship. We need to realize how privileged we are to be in a place that we’ve had an opportunity to hear the gospel and know Jesus Christ. And when we realize that, it will burden our hearts for people who do not have that opportunity. And we need to realize that most of the world is lost, not because they have rejected Jesus Christ or not because there’s no spiritual need in their own life that would lead them to embrace the gospel, but because they’ve never heard. And Of course, god is calling many more to go, that aren’t responding to the call, that aren’t offering him their lives, that aren’t willing to lay their life on the altar and pay the price to go, but will not be willing to go until we begin to pray and really take these people into our hearts.
And for the local church in America, it begins by becoming aware, being informed of the realities of a lost world. For praying earnestly, not for just the missionaries. Our churches pray for their missionaries, but praying for the peoples, the unreached people groups, the Muslims of the world Even the persecutors. Who’s praying for the Baluchi and the Mazaderani and the Quashkai and and Central Asia and South Central Asia and the Fulani and the Kanuri in West Africa, and the multitudes of people groups lifting them up to the throne of God and interceding. When we do, God will break down the barriers, and he’ll call out the laborers and the resources to reach them with the gospel.
Well, doctor Rankin, thank you so much for coming in. I know that, I’m really gonna be looking forward to the next, podcast that we record with you, about spiritual warfare. Yeah. I think we definitely gotta have you back and do spiritual warfare. And, it’s just been a blessing to hear some stories and and I’m encouraged.
Okay. Well, that was Jerry Rankin, doctor Jerry Rankin with the IMB, graciously coming into the studio and having the interview with us. It was great. Yeah. I really appreciate just kinda hearing the you know, you have that many years of experience and you’ve been to I mean, I I should have asked.
I I thought about it, and then I forgot to ask. I don’t wonder how many countries he’s been to. Right. I wonder if there’s any countries he’s not been to, I guess, are probably the easier way of thinking about it because just about every time, I talk to him, he’s either on his way out or on his way back from visiting missionaries, and he’s still very active in the field and coaching and training. Right.
The you know, the thing that stuck out to me for for doctor Rankin was that the fact that I mean, with his position, he has this huge bird’s eye view of what’s kinda going on in the world of missions. And and not only that, because he’s, you know, obviously the director was the director of IMB. He has, you know, all of that back history he probably knows a lot about. And so he I don’t know. It’s kind of a unique perspective that we on the ground maybe don’t get at the church or, you know I I just think we need more testimonies like that.
Yeah. I mean, we were we were at lunch, earlier that day with, Jerry Rankin and Mike Barnett, and they started talking old school I and b shop and Howard and I. Yes. Name dropping from, oh, you remember this story and this story? And I was thinking, dude, this is where we need the mic.
Right. I was like, this stuff is really interesting. Just to hear them kind of go back and talk about the early days of the IMB and reshifting the focus, because we didn’t get into that, but I mean, Jerry was pretty instrumental in reshifting the focus towards reaching the unreached and, reorganizing to specifically reach out to the unreached people groups and and that’s, I mean, that’s a part of Mission’s history. Right. And being a part, being a former YWAMmer, it was kind of interesting because our YWAM base, in particular, me and Trevor, was focused on on the 10:40 window, the unreached people groups, the least reached peoples on the earth.
And it was really interesting to see kind of, like, the, the influence the IMB has actually had in even shaping our base, and we didn’t even really realize it. No. No. We just thought those stats were I don’t know where I don’t know where they came from, but now we know. I mean, you have guys at the IMB like, Jim Haney, who’s very responsible for some of the maps that we see coming out of the IMB.
And I think these maps just sort of appeared to us and we were like, awesome. I believe it. Let’s go. Yeah. That’s all we need to know.
Like, you tell us where to go, we’ll go. Yeah. So, I appreciate the IMB because they’ve they’ve done a lot in in terms of reaching out, but they also do a lot in verifying things that you can trust when the IMB says that there’s a movement happening, that they’ve done due diligence and actually gone in and done the research because there’s so many stories that come out of the world today and you don’t know, are these stories true? But when the IMB tells them you can you can trust that they’ve already sent out a team, they’ve done the research, and I just really appreciate that. Yeah.
I do too because there’s just a lot of I don’t know. I I think there’s just some things that people, as the church can do irresponsibly and that kind of, dampens kind of what God’s doing. No. I think maybe they feel discouraged. They don’t have that bird’s eye view and so they see an Internet story and then they reproduce it and it becomes mission urban legend.
Right. And it’s meant to, like, encourage people, but then when you find out it’s mission urban legend, you’re like, what is this? Right. And, IMB takes the time and verifies and gives all the glory to God. So I do appreciate that.
But but I get where they’re coming from too because, I mean, I don’t know why I’m stuck on fishing today. Maybe I just really wanna go fishing, but Your boat is uncovered, by the way. Yeah. And I’m thinking about when you’re fishing and you’re not catching anything, do you ever just pretend like you’re trying to set the hook on something so that everybody else in the boat feels a little bit encouraged, like, oh, maybe somebody somebody I know does that, but it doesn’t encourage us, Trevor, when you do that. No.
I’ve actually I’ll I’ll pay attention when Howard’s not looking. I’ll just grab his line and pull on it and then I’ll try to set the hook and I won’t say anything and I’ll be like, oh, yeah, man. It’s going. Just so that we’ll stay out a little bit longer in hopes of catching something. And he doesn’t just tug on it, like, lightly.
Like, he jerks on the thing like I have a shark, like a mako shark on the end of my line. And so, of course, I’m setting the hook. And there are many times where it can be a very dangerous situation. You get triangle weight on the end, a giant egg weight flying out of the water at high velocity. Thank you, Trevor.
Yeah. That’s really encouraging. But you know what? You you stay out fishing because you’re like, man, that that was a good bite. No.
I don’t. I know it’s you. So I’m just saying and you’re on the ground laughing. I think I’m just feeling bad about my story about saying that that people that circulate these Internet stories, I was trying to relate with with the phishing story. And I think I just really wanna go fishing.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so the point is, IMB is a blessing. Yeah.
Jerry, I think we wanted to say. We appreciate you coming in today and, encouraging encouraging the church. Hope you guys were encouraged by that. Do write in, like always. You can go to, a lot of people are are saying, we don’t know how to spell Zweimer.
And I I understand. I didn’t know how to spell Zweimer. Are in there? Is it an s? Is it a z?
I’ve I’ve heard so many different ways of spelling it. So here’s the deal. Go to truthaboutmuslims.com. Boom. And so we just pointed that directly to the Zwemer Center website and, that will take you, to the podcast and you’ll be able to see on Podomatic and write in.
If you have comments, questions, feel free to write in and we’ll be happy to answer them and be sure to spread the word. Right. Please. Because we want, the voice to get out there. We want to have an intelligent voice.
Hey, we were business. We were number 73. No. No. 77.
That’s a better number. See, I just exaggerated it. 7. We were You get that, guys? Hello?
That’s full completion there. 7. We were number 77 on Christian podcast. And I think we started out, like, at 6,000 or something like that. We were, like, at the very bottom.
So I don’t know how this rating goes. Apparently, maybe if you just release podcasts regularly. I don’t know. But we had we had some downloads without ever we haven’t been advertising. No.
We haven’t put anything on Facebook, but you guys feel free to. So you put it on Facebook. Yeah. If you’re listening to this and you’re like, yeah. I like this and my friends would like this and or even if they wouldn’t like this.
No. If you don’t like it, don’t talk about it. Just pretend like you didn’t hear it. Alright. Right?
You okay? No. You don’t don’t write bad review. Just stay out of our business, guys. Okay?
You’re not interested. Go easy. Go easy. I’m just saying if you like it, spread the word. If you don’t like it, just pretend like you didn’t hear it.
Right. Go spread someone else’s word, I guess. Fine. I’m just kidding. So anyway write in if you have questions, comments, spread the word, truth about Islam or truth about muslims dot com.
Not truth about Islam. Talk about Muslims here. We’re not talking about Islam. I’m talking about people. Truth about muslims.com.
Alright. I’ll see you next week.